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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You do not listen. You only hear what your beliefs are then ignore the rest.
I listen sedulously; but I'm still waiting for you to say anything substantial, anything that actually addresses the question.
The only other answer is what I am telling you is going over your head.
You aren't telling me anything ─ as I point out in just about every post here.
Clearly. you are not ready to Discover anything.
There you go again, utterly unspecific, utterly insubstantial.
How do I know you exist?
I leave that for you to answer, but I know you know I exist because of this conversation.
You asked who is God?
Yes, I keep asking you define the real God you speak of in terms that will allow us to determine whether any real suspect is God or not, and you relentlessly fail to reply.
Who are you?
An English-speaking adult male homo sapiens sapiens. (I'm surprised you have to ask.)
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I listen sedulously; but I'm still waiting for you to say anything substantial, anything that actually addresses the question.
You aren't telling me anything ─ as I point out in just about every post here.
There you go again, utterly unspecific, utterly insubstantial.
I leave that for you to answer, but I know you know I exist because of this conversation.
Yes, I keep asking you define the real God you speak of in terms that will allow us to determine whether any real suspect is God or not, and you relentlessly fail to reply.
An English-speaking adult male homo sapiens sapiens. (I'm surprised you have to ask.)


How do I know you exist? I don't see you. Are you invisible?? Are you my imagination? I guess one can ask the very same questions about you that one can ask about God.

Oh yes, you said that I can know you exist because of this conversation. Your actions then confirm your existence.

Look around you in this world. Do you see any action from a Higher Intelligence? Can you really say no?? See how ordered things are? See the complexity that lives beyond the surface? One might see a homo sapien yet does one see the DNA and all the high level intelligent complexities beneath the surface?

If you can ignore the High Intelligence that surrounds you claiming God does not exist, I can equally ignore your conversation as evidence you exist. Should we both choose ignoring in favor of what we want to believe?? I will not do it.

I asked who you are and you answer homo sapien. This is a very generic answer. This tells me very little other than your species. You ask who God is and I answer just as you. God is a Spiritual Being. This tells you nothing except the general make up.

So who are you and Who is God other than these general terms that tells us very little. Our actions define who we are. Our ever action tells the world around us who we are. This is the same for God. This is where I am pointing. If you understand the intelligence that lives beyond the mere surface of this world, you will understand God. If you advance far enough down this path you might just get a visit from God, then you will not have to believe anymore. You will Know!!

Still, you have such a very long way to go. You do not even know you too are a Spiritual being. Further, your belief that God does not exist simply based on religious beliefs rather than the evidence around you is a wall that prevents you from so much Discovery.

The first thing God pointed out to me was that mankind carries such a narrow view. Yes, I see your view as very narrow. Much more lives outside the view you choose for yourself.

I guess so often we are our own worst enemy. If only we could all open our minds and views to all the possibilities rather than insist all those answers have already been acquired.

I am but a hungry student. My journey to Discovery will never end for there is always more waiting for me to Discover. I have no time to be complacent waiting for all the answers to come to me. I will Discover them first.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
It is wrong to say, that we can not know all. Because there is no limit (for example, 80%) to research. If we get to know all 100%, we get to know, that we are all-knowing. Hence, the all-knowing being does exist.
Is that a question? Only I've read it several times and I'm sorry, but I still can't work out what you're asking, if indeed you're asking anything?

I've read the rest of your post, and beyond an incoherent and prurient obsession, I fail to see any evidence at all, let alone any "proof" short or otherwise for "Jesus"?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
How do I know you exist? I don't see you. Are you invisible?? Are you my imagination? I guess one can ask the very same questions about you that one can ask about God.
Indeed one can, but I can demsonrate a birth certificate, passport, blood sample, and offer DNA samples, my own and for close relatives, just as a starter.

Have you anything remotely comparable to that level of objective evidence for any deity?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Look around you in this world. Do you see any action from a Higher Intelligence? Can you really say no??
Some humans, alone or together, have achieved things demanding very high intelligence.

But as at 2021 October the evidence says that intelligence (as humans understand the word) is found in a range of animals, of which humans are the standout example; so the most intelligent humans, as far as we know, are the most intelligent beings in the universe.
See how ordered things are? See the complexity that lives beyond the surface? One might see a homo sapien yet does one see the DNA and all the high level intelligent complexities beneath the surface?
Evolution accounts for all of that.
If you can ignore the High Intelligence that surrounds you claiming God does not exist
No, we're not up to that part yet.

We'll be in a position to consider it AFTER you've told me what a real God is, what real thing we should be looking for when we look for God, how we can determine whether any real suspect is God or not.

By the way, the Argument from Design that you're seeking to use (a) has has no wings since the mid 19th century at the latest ─ and (b) is meaningless too unless and until you tell me what a real God is.

Why don't you do the honest thing and say "I don't know" ?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Look around you in this world. Do you see any action from a Higher Intelligence? Can you really say no??
I can say no, that is correct, though the phrase higher intelligence if suitably vague.
If you can ignore the High Intelligence that surrounds you claiming God does not exist, I can equally ignore your conversation as evidence you exist.

Firstly I have never claimed a deity does not exist, only that I am an atheist, and therefore don't believe any deity or deities exist, those are very different positions, both epistemologically and rationally. I have no idea what you mean by High Intelligence so can't comment, but complexity does not infer design, complexity as you point out is ubiquitous in nature, and we know species evolved from less complex organisms. So it is axiomatic that nothing supernatural is needed to explain the complexity you refer to.

However if you want to pretend I don't exist, knock yourself out.

I asked who you are and you answer homo sapien. This is a very generic answer. This tells me very little other than your species.
It was your answer, not mine, you asked and answered your own question, then pretended the answer was unsatisfactory, can you not see the absurdity of such sophistry?
You ask who God is
Nope, never asked that ever, why would I, as I am an atheist.
God is a Spiritual Being. This tells you nothing except the general make up.

It tells me nothing at all, as it is a bare claim. What objective evidence can you demsonrate to support your claim?

Sorry and no offence but your posts just seemed like an endless list of unevidenced assertions, so I gave up at that point.

I believe claims for which sufficient objective evidence can be demonstrated, if you want to sway me towards your theistic belief you'd need to start there.
 
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Bird123

Well-Known Member
Indeed one can, but I can demsonrate a birth certificate, passport, blood sample, and offer DNA samples, my own and for close relatives, just as a starter.

Have you anything remotely comparable to that level of objective evidence for any deity?

The question is how do I know you exist. I did not ask how you can prove you exist. How would I know you exist if you didn't want to be found?
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Some humans, alone or together, have achieved things demanding very high intelligence.

But as at 2021 October the evidence says that intelligence (as humans understand the word) is found in a range of animals, of which humans are the standout example; so the most intelligent humans, as far as we know, are the most intelligent beings in the universe.
Evolution accounts for all of that.
No, we're not up to that part yet.

We'll be in a position to consider it AFTER you've told me what a real God is, what real thing we should be looking for when we look for God, how we can determine whether any real suspect is God or not.

By the way, the Argument from Design that you're seeking to use (a) has has no wings since the mid 19th century at the latest ─ and (b) is meaningless too unless and until you tell me what a real God is.

Why don't you do the honest thing and say "I don't know" ?

If humans are so smart, why is it they do not understand fully DNA. Why is it they are so lost around quantum physics? Clearly the makeup of the universe has far more intelligent design than mankind can conceive.

So you say everything comes from evolution. Where did the system of evolution come from? Do not say it formed on it's own through random chance since the universe isn't old enough for that to happen.

Why are you running? What are you afraid of? Must I repeat and repeat myself? God is a Spiritual Being, just like you and I. God has far more Intellect.

I find it funny you try to convince me to think I do not know what I am talking about. Once knowledge is acquired can one really go back? Do you really want to live like a caveman??

Keep ignoring everything I say. Is it really safer in that box of beliefs you hold so dear?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I can say no, that is correct, though the phrase higher intelligence if suitably vague.


Firstly I have never claimed a deity does not exist, only that I am an atheist, and therefore don't believe any deity or deities exist, those are very different positions, both epistemologically and rationally. I have no idea what you mean by High Intelligence so can't comment, but complexity does not infer design, complexity as you point out is ubiquitous in nature, and we know species evolved from less complex organisms. So it is axiomatic that nothing supernatural is needed to explain the complexity you refer to.

However if you want to pretend I don't exist, knock yourself out.


It was your answer, not mine, you asked and answered your own question, then pretended the answer was unsatisfactory, can you not see the absurdity of such sophistry?

Nope, never asked that ever, why would I, as I am an atheist.


It tells me nothing at all, as it is a bare claim. What objective evidence can you demsonrate to support your claim?

Sorry and no offence but your posts just seemed like an endless list of unevidenced assertions, so I gave up at that point.

I believe claims for which sufficient objective evidence can be demonstrated, if you want to sway me towards your theistic belief you'd need to start there.


These are questions from a reply to blu. They were never addressed to you. On the other hand, I welcome your comments.

First, I do not value Beliefs as religion and society have taught so many to value. With that said, I do not want anyone to value beliefs over what actually exists.

As I became an adult, I realized so much of religion simply did not add up. This is when I started my journey to Discover the Real Truth regardless of what I would find. People have asked me questions and I have answered probably more than I should have. For most, I point. Discovery is for each to Discover for themselves.

Pointing: In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. When you understand these actions, you will understand God. Each open door leads to more doors that can be opened. If you reach a certain level of understanding the entire picture of this world changes. This world has never been a mess. It is a Masterpiece!!

If you reach a high enough level of understanding, you might be lucky enough, as I was, to receive a visit from God. From this point God will not be a belief.

I have found no religion that really understands God at all. Further you must stretch your thinking and view. God is very High Intellect. We are mere ants. Without understanding, a visit from God would be no more than just confusing for most.



That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Must I repeat and repeat myself? God is a Spiritual Being, just like you and I. God has far more Intellect.
Repeat yourself? Where did you previously specify God as a spiritual being? In what post here?

What objective test will distinguish a 'spiritual being' from an 'imaginary being',?

If there's no such test then God is no different to a purely imaginary / conceptual thing, no?
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
If you wanted proof for Jesus it is in the knowledge of belief. There should be wishes, and hopes. There are three important wishes, the wish to be, the wish for fidelity, and wish for consent.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
The question is how do I know you exist. I did not ask how you can prove you exist. How would I know you exist if you didn't want to be found?


Well now you're shifting the goal posts by adding the emboldened part, but I answered a direct request, and showed that objective evidence can be demonstrated for my existence. However I'll play along, even if I wanted to hide there are multiple records from passports, driving licences, employment records, hospital records, birth certificates, all corroborating testimonies from people who know I exist, there are land registry documents, credit card accounts, bank accounts, I could go on and on but you surely get the point. There is objective evidence that I exist, and even were I inclined to hide (though who knows why that caveat has appeared?), the evidence would still be demonstrable


If you wanted proof for Jesus it is in the knowledge of belief.

Circular reasoning fallacy, a belief is the affirmation of a claim, not evidence for a claim.

In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen.

Can objective evidence be demonstrated for that claim? I shan't quote the other bare claims you make, as there are again a lot in that post, as in the previous post, but I cannot accept claims for personal experience as factually true in the complete absence of any objective evidence. I would logically and epistemologically then have to believe them all, and that's demonstrably absurd, as this would eventually involve believing contradictory claims, you denying other theists personal experience them denying yours etc etc.

I have found no religion that really understands God at all.

Well there you go, that is precisely my point. Identical standards for belief, but denying each others claims.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
If humans are so smart, why is it they do not understand fully DNA. Why is it they are so lost around quantum physics?

You seem to be equating smart with omniscient or infallible intellect, but no one is claiming humans are either, so this question seems like something of a straw man.

Clearly the makeup of the universe has far more intelligent design than mankind can conceive.

Another unevidenced assertion, you just keep reeling them off. There is no objective evidence for creationism, and ID is just a propaganda rebranding of an archaic creation myth. Species evolution in stark contrast is an accepted scientific fact, after over 162 years of the most intense rigorous scrutiny, all the evidence supports it, and that is why the global scientific community accept it as a scientific fact.

Do you see any action from a Higher Intelligence?

No. none at all.

Can you really say no??

Unequivocally I can. Nor do I accept your unevidenced premise that order or complexity implies design. We recognise design because designed things don't occur naturally, and of course we can also demsonrate objective evidence for such things being designed and manufactured.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Repeat yourself? Where did you previously specify God as a spiritual being? In what post here?

What objective test will distinguish a 'spiritual being' from an 'imaginary being',?

If there's no such test then God is no different to a purely imaginary / conceptual thing, no?

You have given me proof positive you are not listening.
Until you Discover who you are, no test will do. You have to get out of that box of beliefs you are hanging on for dear life.

You remain bias and will not take any objective effort to Discover anything at all for yourself.

That is your choice and the path you choose. Great!! Discover, as you must, where it leads.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
You seem to be equating smart with omniscient or infallible intellect, but no one is claiming humans are either, so this question seems like something of a straw man.



Another unevidenced assertion, you just keep reeling them off. There is no objective evidence for creationism, and ID is just a propaganda rebranding of an archaic creation myth. Species evolution in stark contrast is an accepted scientific fact, after over 162 years of the most intense rigorous scrutiny, all the evidence supports it, and that is why the global scientific community accept it as a scientific fact.



No. none at all.



Unequivocally I can. Nor do I accept your unevidenced premise that order or complexity implies design. We recognise design because designed things don't occur naturally, and of course we can also demsonrate objective evidence for such things being designed and manufactured.



Ebb and Flow of knowledge. If i were to build a car, there are things all cars must have such as a place to sit, a way to go and stop as with an engine and brakes, a way to steer.

Look around you. How does the universe all fit together so well? To rule out even the possibility of design is to rule out the possibilities in favor of your belief God does not exist. Is you view that narrow? If it is, answers are not what you are looking for.

I read a book years ago written by a statistical scientist. He said the universe is not old enough for everything to form on it's own through random chance.

He went on to say that if the universe was a computer program that there was time. Things like evolution, fractals and quantum entanglement point to this.

God created the universe to unfold into what we have today and beyond. It's just like a seed grows into a giant tree. The thinking is all the same. The real genius is that God created universe to unfold in such a way that mankind will be able to figure it all out in time. This fits perfectly into God's system. You will see this when you understand God's system.

When you study the universe, you are studying the actions of God. Why is it done this way? What are the reasons? Can you really not see the Intelligence at work?

Worry not. Science is walking straight toward God. They have a very long way to God, however, in time, they too will Discover God.

So feel free to take any path you want. If you want to firmly rest on your belief God does not exist, Great!! Each chooses their path. Each chooses what they want to learn. Just like the actions of God show who God is, our actions show God and the world what we know and what we need to learn. It has never ever been about Believing and Accepting. It's about what is!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You have given me proof positive you are not listening.
I've listened carefully.

You've endlessly said nothing that addresses the question.

Let's try again: what real entity do you intend to refer to when you say 'God'?

What test will tell us whether any real suspect is God or not?

What's the answer?
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I've listened carefully.

You've endlessly said nothing that addresses the question.

Let's try again: what real entity do you intend to refer to when you say 'God'?

What test will tell us whether any real suspect is God or not?

What's the answer?

God is who created it all.
Since you already know God whether you know you know or not, when you bump into that suspect God, if you do not already know that God, it isn't God.

Round and round. Repeat and repeat. You do not listen or hear. That is why each must Discover for themselves. This is why each must choose what they want to learn then Live those Lessons.

Clearly, God is not who you search for. Aren't you really wasting both of our time? Getting me to give up knowing to value your belief that God does not exist is not going to happen. Intelligence must move forward. It would not be smart to move back.

Good luck with your journey. Be True to yourself. Decide what you really want first.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God is who created it all.
If God is real, has objective existence, describe God in terms such that we can determine whether any real suspect is God or not.

If God is purely conceptual / imaginary, just say so.

(And you forgot to tell me the objective test that will distinguish the spiritual from the imaginary.)
 
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