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Shooting the Messenger: In Defense of Academia

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Debater Slayer, Feb 22, 2021.

  1. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    That can be a challenge with some more complex topics, though.
     
  2. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    I used to get my Grade 4s to have old school debates when I was a teacher. Getting them to argue cases they don't believe in...or don't initially believe in...is very informative and educational I think.
     
  3. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus retired astronomer

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    Do you think that the only works studied in college and university are those that are being advocated by the faculty as guides for living? Or might things be important for historical and cultural reasons too? And you can ask any economist and they will tell you that Marx made valuable contributions and insights into economics, regardless if one choses to embrace his overall system.
     
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  4. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Lol my cousin does that to me now. Every time I talk to him, he always tries to get me to argue a position (any position) by asking me a deliberately undermining question to my stance. He’s a high school teacher.
     
  5. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Damn teachers!! Lol
     
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  6. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    I know, right?!
     
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  7. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    True, it would largely depend on the subject matter. But as an example, most people may not really know all the processes and working parts of a modern automobile, nor would they likely understand all the science and technology that goes into it. Nor would they likely care. All they would know or care about is whether or not it worked.

    If it doesn't work, some people might get frustrated and say "This car is a piece of crap!" Someone who is more scientifically-minded might correct them by going into a long technical explanation that the car is not, in fact, dung, but a complex piece of machinery full of many moving parts, any one of which might fail. If the frustrated would-be motorist is still angry and says "No, this is a piece of crap," I wouldn't necessarily believe it to be a rejection of science. The person is merely frustrated over something that doesn't work as it should.

    That may sum up how the general public might relate to science. If it works and proves useful for society's interests, then it's great. Science is wonderful. Miracles from Molecules! But if it doesn't work or doesn't seem useful, then people might get confused or not see any point to it.

    People like science when it comes to building bombs and weapons, even people who might seem anti-science when it comes to other things.
     
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  8. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Excellent!
    Among intellectuals, the respectful response to a proposition is immediately to attack it. Not attacking shows disrespect and dismissiveness.
    Intellectuals value veracity. Attacking an idea - testing it -- assists one's interlocutor in collecting and analyzing his data, and introduces other, perhaps contrary data, for consideration. Attack assists him to achieve this highest goal.
     
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  9. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    But does he have to do that at the family BBQ when we’re all sloshed? Lol
     
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  10. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Hahaha!!!
     
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  11. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    Fun fact: Shakespeare had been almost completely forgotten until his works saw a massive popularity surge in the 19th century. So arguably, his central importance for the English language is a claim that was originally pushed by a particularly dedicated cabal of English Lit professors. Clearly, academia is plots all the way down.
     
  12. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    If only academia can put things in layman's terms. Heh.

    Academic Language vs. Colloquial Language - Writing Commons
     
  13. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    A problem with academic & legal writing is needless complexity.
    Why Is Academic Writing So Needlessly Complex?
    When I write contracts, I strive for clarity & unambiguity above
    all. This means avoiding complexity. One useful technique is
    to use outline format instead of a sentence containing a list.
    It takes up more room, but it's far more readable.
     
  14. Jacob25

    Jacob25 New Member

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    It is an error to assume Science in itself has any sort of message. Science only gathers data, places and tests hypothesis, attempts to predict material activity, and rearranges existing matter. It neither creates reality nor gives significance.

    An assumed World View is required to assign any message from Science.

    Thanks for sharing how things seem to be.
     
  15. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Reminds me of this exchange from the movie The Verdict:


    Ed Concannon : Why wasn't she getting oxygen?

    Dr. Towler : Well, many reasons, really...

    Ed Concannon : Tell me one.

    Dr. Towler : She'd aspirated vomitus into her mask.

    Ed Concannon : She threw up in her mask. Now cut the bull****, please. Just say it: She threw up in her mask.


    In this case, highfalutin language is dismissed as "BS," which would imply it's used to deceive or confuse people. That's why they always tell people to have a lawyer read over any contract before signing, since someone may be trying to pull a fast one. That's why many prefer straight talk over legalese or jargon.
     
  16. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    Science does not happen all by itself, however - it is generally conducted by, and for, human beings, who come pre-built with bias, prejudices, and frequently conflicting worldviews that cannot simply be turned "off", even if it may be inconvenient or an outright hindrance at times.

    The notion of a science devoid of these human foibles appears to me like it would be borne largely out of wishful thinking.
     
  17. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Colloquial is how language evolves and stays alive. But Academic is important to show off that one is erudite. Or at least pretend that one is erudite. Especially important for impressing gullible bosses ;)
     
  18. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    It also uses technical terms to avoid muddling highly specialized academic discussions and papers with the ambiguity of everyday language. Most academic texts are being written for an audience of academics, who presumably already understand these highly specific technical terms and don't neeed to have it explained to them what an "albedo" is and how it is relevant to their chosen field of research. I'm sure you could find common language words for such terms, but would that actually improve understanding among the people most likely to be confronted with them?
     
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  19. Jacob25

    Jacob25 New Member

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    Wrong notion reaction.

    Science is controlled by he who controls the wisdom of the Fallen Ones described in the Book of Enoch. You know, the Book of Enoch extensively quoted by Jude. Maybe not quite apparent for some still in costume.
     
  20. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Yeah I know. I was merely being flippant.
    I grew up around teachers. One thing I quickly learnt is they do not accept you speaking “lazily.” You use the language “properly.” Its a right pain in the *** talking to them lol
     
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