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Shoe is on the other foot: Prove there is not God.

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
Just the opposite, I am showing the futility of telling one there is no reason to believe when ones faith can not be disproved.

"faith?" isn't that just another way of saying, you have no good reason for believing, but you continue to do so?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I believe those books were written as a way to reach and understand God. I will not comment on this. I know my texts are true, I know if I do not follow my texts I will be in jeopardy. I am not God and I will make no comment on this.

Evasive much? I guess you have to ignore some facts to retain your faith.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Just the opposite, I am showing the futility of telling one there is no reason to believe when ones faith can not be disproved.
You could have saved us a lot of time. Faith can never be disproved; it's not about proof. If it were, we wouldn't call it faith.

Now getting back to reality, the existence of specific Gods can be disproved. For example, any God that grants prayers. Or, an perfectly benevolent, good, loving and all-powerful God. That God could not possibly exist.
 

Archer

Well-Known Member
Well that's silly. Some historic documents are contemporaneous, have known authors, are written for nuetral purposes, are corroborated, or have other reasons that lend them credibility. The gospels are written by unknown authors, for obvious propaganda purposes, generations after the events described, and are completely uncorroborated. But apparently it's all the same to you.

I assume you treat the q'uran the same way? It has comparable indicia of reliability.

Does that not meet the standard that I said in my post? "living witness or physical evidence" 3 different sources (just a # I picked), eyewitness reports or other evidence.
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
Does that not meet the standard that I said in my post? "living witness or physical evidence" 3 different sources (just a # I picked), eyewitness reports or other evidence.

I'm confused. Because there aren't any eyewitness accounts in the bible. But maybe thats not what you were alluding to.
 

Archer

Well-Known Member
For example, any God that grants prayers. Or, an perfectly benevolent, good, loving and all-powerful God. That God could not possibly exist.

Why? I have a good life:) I don't ask for anything in my prayers either? Perhaps that is why I believe, to ask for personal things in prayer is not the purpose.

Prayer shows faith and cleanses your soul.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
The illogic of accepting any one 'omnipotent' god concept over another, without any evidence that you have selected to worship the 'correct' version of god is in itself evidence that there is no omnipotent, interventionist, revelatory god. For if there was, it would, by it's own omnipotent power, make itself known to all.

He has. That is a great argument by the way.


No, he/she/it has not. If it had, there would be no debate.
As "by it's own omnipotent power" would make debate unnecessary.
And if , as you claim, God has revealed himself to all, then God is not omnipotent. Since the numerous god concepts, not to mention atheism, disprove the omnipotency.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Does that not meet the standard that I said in my post? "living witness or physical evidence" 3 different sources (just a # I picked), eyewitness reports or other evidence.

What are you talking about? Not the gospels, I hope? The gospels were not written by eye-witnesses; they were compiled generations after the events described, by anonymous authors.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Why? I have a good life:) I don't ask for anything in my prayers either? Perhaps that is why I believe, to ask for personal things in prayer is not the purpose.

Prayer shows faith and cleanses your soul.

So you agree that your God does not grant prayers?
 

Archer

Well-Known Member
No, he/she/it has not. If it had, there would be no debate.
As "by it's own omnipotent power" would make debate unnecessary.
And if , as you claim, God has revealed himself to all, then God is not omnipotent. Since the numerous god concepts, not to mention atheism, disprove the omnipotency.

Just because some choose not to see is not my problem! Open your eyes to the wonder of He that is.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Just because some choose not to see is not my problem! Open your eyes to the wonder of He that is.

Do you have a clue how inconsistent you're being? This is not an argument! I could as well say, "Just because some choose not to see that there is no God is not my problem! Open your eyes to the fact that He isn't." Not much of an argument, is it?

The point is, if you allow personal revelation as evidence, you're in trouble. You have to accept a lot of personal revelation that you don't.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
No, he/she/it has not. If it had, there would be no debate.
As "by it's own omnipotent power" would make debate unnecessary.
And if , as you claim, God has revealed himself to all, then God is not omnipotent. Since the numerous god concepts, not to mention atheism, disprove the omnipotency.

Just because some choose not to see is not my problem! Open your eyes to the wonder of He that is.

Cop out. You have just given humans power over God, in that they can chose to ignore a revelation of Gods Omnipotent power. Thus reducing God to less then omnipotent. and reliant upon hear-say.
 

Archer

Well-Known Member
So you agree that your God does not grant prayers?

Not in ways that can be understood. I say that prayer helps and it does, miracles are all over, not just for those that pray but all.

I have some issues with these people that put their hands on someone and heal them or sell healing prayers by mail? That is not Biblical as the healing powers were bestowed on the Apostles and when they were gone there were no more like them.

Does it help, yes it help's the one praying for someone else, do miracles happen? Yes. Are they a result of prayer? Perhaps, Do miracles only happen if there is prayer? No. Are only believers granted miracles? No.

Everything has it's time, there is a balance, Zen if you will. Some must die that others may live and prosper.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Not in ways that can be understood. I say that prayer helps and it does, miracles are all over, not just for those that pray but all.

I have some issues with these people that put their hands on someone and heal them or sell healing prayers by mail? That is not Biblical as the healing powers were bestowed on the Apostles and when they were gone there were no more like them.

Does it help, yes it help's the one praying for someone else, do miracles happen? Yes. Are they a result of prayer? Perhaps, Do miracles only happen if there is prayer? No. Are only believers granted miracles? No.

Everything has it's time, there is a balance, Zen if you will. Some must die that others may live and prosper.

It's a pretty simple question. If you, a devout Christian, pray for something to happen, is it any more likely to happen than if you don't?
 

Archer

Well-Known Member
Cop out. You have just given humans power over God, in that they can chose to ignore a revelation of Gods Omnipotent power. Thus reducing God to less then omnipotent. and reliant upon hear-say.

Did Pharaoh cave to God? Did the Jew's listen? No. There are so many examples in the Bible of people refusing God it ain't funny!

If I were writing a fiction book like that I think I would have my God prove himself and make all bow down! My people would have been victims and raised up by God, not rebellious and constantly beaten down and punished by their God.

The Bible is too illogical to be a fake.
 

Archer

Well-Known Member
It's a pretty simple question. If you, a devout Christian, pray for something to happen, is it any more likely to happen than if you don't?

I never ask for anything to happen so I cant answer that. I believe as I said prayer is for cleansing yourself not getting things.
 

Archer

Well-Known Member
Wow.
Talk about desperation making one grasp at straws.....

Not desperation, a POV.

If I were writing a fiction book like that I think I would have my God prove himself and make all bow down! My people would have been victims and raised up by God, not rebellious and constantly beaten down and punished by their God.

The Bible is too illogical to be a fake.

What I was saying is if it were BS it would be a hell of a lot better for the Jew's.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
The Bible is too illogical to be a fake.
This can be said of all revealed revelations.
So we have gone full circle back to my original statement.

These religions rely on revealed revelations.
In each case, the deity expressed the revelation to a select group of people, to be spread to others.
The God who desires worship. Or commands acknowledgment, and sets forth laws for the people to follow, is restricted in direct communication to a select few, and expects others to suspend rational thought and accept hear-say as a direct communication from God.

This obvious limitation in communication between an 'omnipotent' deity and its supposed creation creates confusion in translation and interpretation, multiple denominations, multiple religions and sects. And most revealing of all, numerous god concepts in contradiction with each other.

The illogic of accepting any one 'omnipotent' god concept over another, without any evidence that you have selected to worship the 'correct' version of god is in itself evidence that there is no omnipotent, interventionist, revelatory god. For if there was, it would, by it's own omnipotent power, make itself known to all.
 
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