She who is without Sin

[ppp]

In your particular take on the Fall in Eden, assuming that you have one:
Did Eve have the knowledge of good and evil before eating of the fruit of Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

If so, what is the difference between the good and evil she had knowledge of before eating, and the Good and Evil she had knowledge of immediately after?

If she did not understand good and evil, how could she sin without that capacity for moral evaluation?

 

[Deidre]

I don't think she did, it seemed more of a strong curiosity and desire to follow her own plan than God's instruction, that led her to choosing the taboo tree. How many times have I relied on my own wisdom and not God's, only to realize that I was wrong in the end. But, one has to believe in God, the God of the Bible, to believe that the story has any merit at all. I do believe so I see it in the way I've just shared.

 

[Nakosis]

In your particular take on the Fall in Eden, assuming that you have one:
Did Eve have the knowledge of good and evil before eating of the fruit of Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

If so, what is the difference between the good and evil she had knowledge of before eating, and the Good and Evil she had knowledge of immediately after?

If she did not understand good and evil, how could she sin without that capacity for moral evaluation?

Sin, to disobey God. Assuming Adam and Eve were autonomous they had the capacity to choose to obey or disobey. They both chose to disobey and therefore got banned from Eden.

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Good and evil. the entire spectrum of knowledge of what there is to know. So basically knowledge of everything.

Since Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they could not be trusted with the knowledge of everything. So they got kicked out of Eden into the world pretty much ignorant.

Assuming we have a God that love us, why didn't God provide a nice place to live and knowledge of everything so we would want we needed to know.

Wouldn't you as a parent do exactly this for your children?

Seems to me an explanation of why, having a God who loves us, we ended up on a hostile world as ignorant savages.

 

[exchemist]

In your particular take on the Fall in Eden, assuming that you have one:
Did Eve have the knowledge of good and evil before eating of the fruit of Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

If so, what is the difference between the good and evil she had knowledge of before eating, and the Good and Evil she had knowledge of immediately after?

If she did not understand good and evil, how could she sin without that capacity for moral evaluation?

It seems to me this is attempting logical nitpicking over an ancient allegorical story that is not to be taken literally.

I think the imagery of the story of the Garden of Eden conveys certain key messages about the relationships between God, Man and Creation:
- God created the world
- God created Man in his image, i.e. with a spiritual part to him
- God has a caring relationship with Man
- Man has stewardship of the earth
- Man acquired moral awareness (eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil)
- This knowledge took away Man's innocence, just as a child loses innocence as it grows up
- This is a curse as well as a blessing.
- Now Man has to fend for himself: he is an adult now, not a child. And it is tough.

I find the idea of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the consequences of eating its fruit, very poignant and poetic. We all lament, from time to time, the loss of our own innocence and yearn to be simple children again, or at least many of us do.

 

[ppp]

I don't think she did, it seemed more of a strong curiosity and desire to follow her own plan than God's instruction, that led her to choosing the taboo tree. How many times have I relied on my own wisdom and not God's, only to realize that I was wrong in the end. But, one has to believe in God, the God of the Bible, to believe that the story has any merit at all. I do believe so I see it in the way I've just shared.

But unlike Eve, as depicted in the story pre-fruit, you have the capacity to make moral evaluations. Doesn't sinning entail the ability to make moral evaluations -- the ability to distinguish good from evil? An ability that Eve did not have before she took the bite. Right? Or not?

 

[ppp]

Sin, to disobey God. Assuming Adam and Eve were autonomous they had the capacity to choose to obey or disobey. They both chose to disobey and therefore got banned from Eden.

So in your estimation, sin has nothing to do with morality. It is simply disobedience? That is a question. Not an assertion.

Wouldn't you as a parent do exactly this for your children?

If I were a parent with omnipotence, I would not have set up this whole scenario to begin with.

 

[Deidre]

But unlike Eve, as depicted in the story pre-fruit, you have the capacity to make moral evaluations. Doesn't sinning entail the ability to make moral evaluations -- the ability to distinguish good from evil? An ability that Eve did not have before she took the bite. Right? Or not?

Well, God specifically asked them not to eat of that one tree, and they didn't listen to Him. So, in that sense, the concept of sin soon became clear. They didn't think God was good enough, is really what that story was all about. They didn't believe that God had a right to tell them perhaps what to do and not do, so they ''defied'' Him.

 

[ppp]

Well, God specifically asked them not to eat of that one tree, and didn't listen to Him. So, in that sense, the concept of sin became clear. They didn't think God was enough, is really what that story was all about.

Would it be fair to say that you do not take the story literally? That she did have the capacity for moral evaluations prior to eating the fruit?

 

[Lyndon]

I think Eve ended up talking to the serpent because Adam was neglecting her, its definitely Adams fault IMHO

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But unlike Eve, as depicted in the story pre-fruit, you have the capacity to make moral evaluations. Doesn't sinning entail the ability to make moral evaluations -- the ability to distinguish good from evil? An ability that Eve did not have before she took the bite. Right? Or not?

I guess you can compare it to an infant and adult. Eve is like the infant. She sinned (assuming it does not need moral evaluation to disobey god) and was judged by her conduct not context.

What's weird is when a parent sees their infant "sin" they don't disown them. So, it seems like before and after sin has to do with the act not the intent. Take sex (example). If intent was taken into context, ones sex would be irrelevant to that action. Since it's strictly about action, there's stipulations to whether that same act is a sin to one couple as opposed to another.

Think it's about actions not morals, faith,context.

 

[Nakosis]

So in your estimation, sin has nothing to do with morality. It is simply disobedience? That is a question. Not an assertion.


If I were a parent with omnipotence, I would not have set up this whole scenario to begin with.

What would you have done?
Would you not punish your children who disobeyed you?

We could have had it all if we did what God asked of us.

I guess we are being punished until learn to obey God. It may seem like a long time but humans don't seem to learn very quickly.

 

[Deidre]

Would it be fair to say that you do not take the story literally? That she did have the capacity for moral evaluations prior to eating the fruit?

I used to see it as allegory, but after reading the Bible again, I take it literally. I've struggled in the past with taking such Biblical stories as literal because I didn't trust that God was sovereign, and could bring about all things. All types of ideas, that to a human, seem ridiculous. My faith isn't entirely Bible based, though but believing in the accuracy of the Bible, means that I can see clearly the reason why Jesus came to be.To pick and choose what I take literally would create a problem for Jesus' life, death and resurrection.

 

[sun rise]

- Man acquired moral awareness (eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil)
- This knowledge took away Man's innocence, just as a child loses innocence as it grows up
- This is a curse as well as a blessing.

That's my view.

If I were a parent with omnipotence, I would not have set up this whole scenario to begin with.

"Good Omens" got very close to my view in this quote which explored that perspective. I don't see it as 'parent', 'child' but as the Divine as humans exploring the Divinely created world of duality in order to realize the original Divine state:

“If you sit down and think about it sensibly, you come up with some very funny ideas. Like: why make people inquisitive, and then put some forbidden fruit where they can see it with a big neon finger flashing on and off saying 'THIS IS IT!'? ... I mean, why do that if you really don't want them to eat it, eh? I mean, maybe you just want to see how it all turns out. Maybe it's all part of a great big ineffable plan. All of it. You, me, him, everything. Some great big test to see if what you've built all works properly, eh? You start thinking: it can't be a great cosmic game of chess, it has to be just very complicated Solitaire.”
​

 

[alsome]

It's kind of surprising that all these posts are based a story from Moses' mind.

 

[ppp]

What would you have done?
Would you not punish your children who disobeyed you?

Let's say that I put a bowl of Tide Pods in the middle of my children's playroom, and tell them that they can do anything except eat the Tide Pods. Then I go up to the kitchen to get a glass of water. And they eat some. I would be the crappy parent. I would be the one at fault. I should be the one punished for my criminal negligence. Not the children.

 

[ppp]

It's kind of surprising that all these posts are based a story from Moses' mind.

Or some other guy with the same name.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's kind of surprising that all these posts are based a story from Moses' mind.

What is kind of surprising is that you think "that all these posts are based a story from Moses' mind."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What would you have done?
Would you not punish your children who disobeyed you?

We could have had it all if we did what God asked of us.

I guess we are being punished until learn to obey God. It may seem like a long time but humans don't seem to learn very quickly.

Punish, yes. Kick them out the house,no.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Or some other guy with the same name.

Written by Moses not his personal story. He wasn't born same time Eve was around.

Of course I'll get people "correcting" me in their definition, but that's so far I know.

 

[ppp]

Written by Moses not his personal story. He wasn't born same time Eve was around.

Of course I'll get people "correcting" me in their definition, but that's so far I know.

There isn't any evidence that there was a Moses.