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She sat out the anthem in protest. Her teacher said ‘go back to your country,’ students say

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You went to different schools than I did.

It's hard to express such rights when there's a nun at the front of the room keeping time for the song by smacking her open palm with a ruler.:confused:
Tom
The dreaded penguin...I've heard of them.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You went to different schools than I did.

It's hard to express such rights when there's a nun at the front of the room keeping time for the song by smacking her open palm with a ruler.:confused:
Tom

Yes. The rules are different if you aren't in a public school.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
IMO the teacher was out of line but if you left your country to live a better life here, claim citizenship here, go to school here and receive free aid here,,, then show some respect and stand for the anthem. Evidently life wasn't good for you before you came here.

She sat out the anthem in protest. Her teacher said ‘go back to your country,’ students say.
What a bunch of rubbish.
The longer I stay in this country, the less I respect it’s symbols of Imperialism.
And your last statement is even more insane.
Life WAS better in my previous country, but it no longer exists, because of the country you worship, so I cannot go back.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
The lyrics come from the Defence of Fort M'Henry, a poem written … by … Francis Scott Key after witnessing the bombardment of Fort McHenry by British ships … War of 1812.
I note:
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country, should leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

The reference to hirelings and slaves was to the thousands of slaves who fled the "land of the free" to fight for Britain!
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you don’t like it here, the best thing to do is not to leave but to vote.

I've liked most of what I've read from you, but we part ways here.

I didn't like what America had become, and expected to like it even less as the years passed, and chose to expatriate in the early 2000s. By 2009, we were ready to retire and leave. Staying there would have been a sacrifice. And voting wasn't an option for a registered Democrat in rural Missouri. I was purged from the voter rolls the last two times I had tried to vote.

I really didn't want to stay, and obviously voting is even more pointless when you're turned away than when you're not, which I also consider pointless except at the local level. You can still decide on a bond for your county democratically, or the library's hours, but voters have no say in national politics anymore. Nobody cares what the American people want at the federal level.Do you want a war ended.Tough. Do you want the Senate to call witnesses? Too bad. Do you want the national debt reined in? Good luck with that. It's just a dog and pony show now to give the appearance of democracy and the false impression that the voter has a say so he can feel included and empowered when he is neither.

Even if I was allowed to vote, I wouldn't any longer since I just don't believe that the elections are honest any longer, nor do I believe that the voters choose the president, for example. I am extremely suspicious of what it means that Congress has not done its due diligence to secure the election since the Putin thing. You have to ask yourself why. I think the answer is obvious, and I just am not interested in playing that game.

People disrespecting a piece of cloth and a song are more “right” than someone attacking an individual who is standing in front of them, yes.

And you are literally asked to pledge allegiance to that piece of cloth. Consider the words: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America" You might say that that is not meant literally - that the flag is a symbol of the nation, and you are actually pledging allegiance to the nation, not the cloth symbol.

But then, a few words later, you're instructed to pledge allegiance not just to the flag, but also "and to the republic for which it stands."

Even when I felt allegiance to America, I never felt allegiance to the flag, and I felt ridiculous saying otherwise.

And I also think it's unwise to assume that America will tolerate an immigrant exercising the right to protest for much longer. One cannot use the examples of the past to predict the future. The number of people willing to die for her right to protest is waning as the number that would ask her too die for attempting to exercise it is on the rise.

Too many that fought for that anthem also fought for rights. IMO it's disrespectful to those that died.

Those people fought for and died for a different country than what America is now. I loved that country, but not this one.

Perhaps this America should have a new anthem and flag so that people could show their disrespect for what America has become without including disrespect for what it once was.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Especially if there's a paper in the principal's office giving the staff written permission from your parents to use any means necessary.
Tom
At least in Canada, the law is that nobody can consent to their own assault.

I imagine that this would go double for someone consenting to assault on someone else (e.g. their child).
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
At least in Canada, the law is that nobody can consent to their own assault.

I imagine that this would go double for someone consenting to assault on someone else (e.g. their child).
I'm talking about the 60s.
Was Canada as progressive then?
I've heard stories from native Americans suggesting differently. But I don't pretend to know.
Tom
 

SoyLeche

meh...
I've liked most of what I've read from you, but we part ways here.

I didn't like what America had become, and expected to like it even less as the years passed, and chose to expatriate in the early 2000s. By 2009, we were ready to retire and leave. Staying there would have been a sacrifice. And voting wasn't an option for a registered Democrat in rural Missouri. I was purged from the voter rolls the last two times I had tried to vote.

I really didn't want to stay, and obviously voting is even more pointless when you're turned away than when you're not, which I also consider pointless except at the local level. You can still decide on a bond for your county democratically, or the library's hours, but voters have no say in national politics anymore. Nobody cares what the American people want at the federal level.Do you want a war ended.Tough. Do you want the Senate to call witnesses? Too bad. Do you want the national debt reined in? Good luck with that. It's just a dog and pony show now to give the appearance of democracy and the false impression that the voter has a say so he can feel included and empowered when he is neither.

Even if I was allowed to vote, I wouldn't any longer since I just don't believe that the elections are honest any longer, nor do I believe that the voters choose the president, for example. I am extremely suspicious of what it means that Congress has not done its due diligence to secure the election since the Putin thing. You have to ask yourself why. I think the answer is obvious, and I just am not interested in playing that game.
.
That was meant as a response to those saying “if you don’t like it here, leave”.

if you think the best thing for yourself and your family is to relocate, more power to you. If you think that someone else should relocate because their presence or actions annoys you, well screw that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That was meant as a response to those saying “if you don’t like it here, leave”.

if you think the best thing for yourself and your family is to relocate, more power to you. If you think that someone else should relocate because their presence or actions annoys you, well screw that.
I'd be inclined to quote from Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five.
"Go take a flying <act of procreation> at a rolling doughnut..."
 

SoyLeche

meh...
And you are literally asked to pledge allegiance to that piece of cloth. Consider the words: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America" You might say that that is not meant literally - that the flag is a symbol of the nation, and you are actually pledging allegiance to the nation, not the cloth symbol.

But then, a few words later, you're instructed to pledge allegiance not just to the flag, but also "and to the republic for which it stands."

Even when I felt allegiance to America, I never felt allegiance to the flag, and I felt ridiculous saying otherwise.

And I also think it's unwise to assume that America will tolerate an immigrant exercising the right to protest for much longer. One cannot use the examples of the past to predict the future. The number of people willing to die for her right to protest is waning as the number that would ask her too die for attempting to exercise it is on the rise.
.
I was obviously being facetious with the whole “piece of cloth” thing - but...

what exactly am I supposed to be pledging allegiance to when I say it?

the government? No thank you.

the real estate? It’s nice and all, but no more worthy of my allegiance than any other plot of land.

the people? Similar response as the land.

the ideals? That one has some merit, but one of those ideals is freedom of expression. If one feels that the ideals the country was based on aren’t being lived up to, it might well be MORE respectful to the ideals to refuse to pledge allegiance to a poor facsimile of them.

am I missing any?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I was obviously being facetious with the whole “piece of cloth” thing

Yes, I understand that. I wanted to point out that if the pledge actually asks you to pledge allegiance to the flag as an object in addition to the republic for which it stands. I wonder what the author was thinking.

what exactly am I supposed to be pledging allegiance to when I say it?

the government? No thank you.

the real estate? It’s nice and all, but no more worthy of my allegiance than any other plot of land.

the people? Similar response as the land.

the ideals? That one has some merit, but one of those ideals is freedom of expression. If one feels that the ideals the country was based on aren’t being lived up to, it might well be MORE respectful to the ideals to refuse to pledge allegiance to a poor facsimile of them.

am I missing any?

Good question. What exactly is one doing when pledging allegiance to a country? What is he promising? Loyalty? That's provisional. America has been betraying most of its citizens since the rise of the neoconservatives and their capture of the government, which now serves the 1% on the backs of the average taxpayer. What loyalty does one owe that?

And look at the rancor between the two halves of the country. Neither has much respect or affection for the other. Can you even call America a single country. It's bitter rivals forced to live beside one another.

I feel no connection to conservative America any longer. Thirty years of anti-liberal sentiments have pretty much convinced me that they don't like people like me, and the feeling has become mutual. What's my duty to those people? None. They're not my fellow anythings any longer.

I actually have no country any longer, just a Mexican community that I call home. I don't consider myself an American except in the sense that I was acculturated there and still have an American passport. And I don't feel like a Mexican, either. One day, I realized that I don't need to identify with any country. I've got my wife, dogs, friends and neighbors. That's my world now.

Family is far away, and we haven't seen any of them in years given that they're afraid to come to Mexico and were not interested in visiting America any longer. Our adopted family is here.

No part of the world matters any more or less than any other except this one. Why would I have a preference for a stranger in Monterrey, California over one in Monterrey, Mexico when a factory moves from one place to the other?
 
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