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Shamar on You.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Three hieroglyphs: ש and מ and ר. ------Shin, mem, reish.

Shin. A picture of a thorn-bush ש. The shin has three branches culminating in three yod at the end of the branch. The yod is itself a hieroglyph of a thorn therein making the shin a glyph of a thorn-bush. The ancients used thorn-bushes as nature's own barbed-wire. With this natural barbed-wire they manufactured fences to protect the flock.

Mem. The mem represents the sound "mom" and is said throughout Jewish midrashim to represent not just a "mom" but specifically the womb of the mother. There are two symbols used for the mem. An open-mem מ and a closed-mem ם. Orthodox Jewish midrashim claims the closed-mem represents the arrival of Messiah.

Reish. The reish symbolizes the "first" or the "firstborn." Throughout Jewish midrashim the reish is the symbol of the "firstborn," or that which is first in order and or preeminence.

The Hebrew word for "guard" שמר shamar, is literally a picture of a "thorn-bush" being used to guard the womb (the mem) of the firstborn of creation (the reish). A shamar שמר is a thorn-bush-fence used to "guard" the womb (the mem) of the Jewish firstborn (the reish). -----When Adam is commanded to "guard" the sanctuary of Eden, he's being told to protect his own body so that the firstborn of creation (the reish), who is the "covenant" between God and man, not be broken or cross-bred (Cain) thereby desecrating the covenant God intends to establish between himself and his creation.

Adam doesn't "guard" the covenant and so Cain is born as the presumed firstborn of creation. Cain is a Duke's mixture produced through the phallic mixing of genes in opposition to the covenant God intended which required a parthenogenic or virgin son to be born from Adam who was the true Great Mother of all creation.

Adam's failure led to the covenant being transferred to Noah, who's failure (the Canaan fiasco) led to the covenant being transferred to Abraham, whose offspring's failure (at Sinai) let to the covenant being transferred, for the first time, to a female. A quiet, insignificant, Jewish girl, not only became the first female recipient of the transfer of the covenant, but this small, quiet, insignificant girl became the organ through whom the covenant between God and creation found its heaven and earth-shattering completion. . . What no man proved capable of "guarding" was brought to completion through the services of a seemingly insignificant young Jewish maiden.


Mary had a little lamb,
It's fleece was white as snow;
And everywhere that Mary went
The lamb was sure to go.
He followed her to school one day
Which was against the rule;
It made the children laugh and play,
To see a lamb at school.
And so the teacher turned him out,
But still he lingered near;
And waited patiently about
Till Mary did appear
"What makes the lamb love Mary so?"
The eager children cry;
"Why, Mary loves the lamb, you know,"
The teacher did reply.


John

 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Seems like you're writing your own scripture. By what authority do you speak?

Because the Bible is an oracle offering "truth" and "life" rather than mere "knowledge," it doesn't always answer our questions in the linear fashion our profane teachers taught us was the path to knowing the truth. In truth, our profane teachers only showed us the path to knowledge and not the path to truth. . . Which is a long-winded way to imply that the true answer to your question isn't being evaded, but merely sought in a non-linear manner. . . If you're genuinely interested in the answer, and patient, you might get more than you bargained for.

The garden of Eden is called the "garden of God." In God's garden there's a sanctuary on a mountaintop in the center of the garden. Until Genesis 2:21 there's only two personages in the garden: Adam, and Adon. In one of the most brilliant passages in Midrash Rabbah (Numbers, Chukkath, xix,3) Adon queries Adam about his (Adam's) naming of the animals in order to show the bene ha elohim that Adam is able to dissect the letters of a name to reveal the sacred, hieroglphic, meaning of the name. When Adon asks Adam to dissect his, Adon's, name, Adam relates that he's aware that the name Adon עדן means the "witness," or "testifyer," "judge" דן (and later "executioner," Midrash Rabbah, Lam. II, 3), of God.

In the narrative, Adon shows the angels (the bene ha elohim) the greater wisdom inherent in Adam's ability to use words and letters to reveal the deep secrets of God. When Adam dissects the name "Adon" עדן he does so by acknowledging that the last two letters דן mean "judge," or "judgement," while the first two letters עד mean "witness," "testimony," or "accuser." ----- Adam uses the Hebrew hieroglyphs, the sacred letters, to unveil the sacred meaning of the name Adon, who, Adon, is one of only two personages in the garden. In Ezekiel 28:12-17 we read about a personage nearly identical to Adam's rendering of Adon:

Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald . . . Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Eze 28:12–18). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.​

There are so many questionable word translations in the passage above that it almost seems like a purposeful attempt to "cover up" the narrative parallel between this and the story of the garden of God. The word translated "covereth" (as in the anointed cherub that covereth) סכך, means "to weave, interweave . . . a hedge, to fence . . . to protect and guard persons and gardens" (Gesenius). The word translated "anointed" משח is the word for "messiah," such that the personage said to walk on the holy mountain of God in the garden of Eden is none other than the "guardian of messiah"; the cherub assigned to guard the covenant of God, which is the birth of the firstborn of creation, who would have been Messiah if not for Genesis 2:21, which is described here, Ezekiel 28, where the messianic cherub, the one assigned to "guard" סכך the birth of Messiah, instead "sealest up the sum." The translation of "sealest up the sum" seals up the true meaning of "sealest up the sum." The Hebrew חותם תכנית means:

סכך . . .Niphal pass. of No. 1, to be sealed, Est. 3:12; 8:8.
Piel, to shut (see under Kal No. 1), followed by לְ as though it were, to put a barrier, to set a lock on something. Job 24:16, יוֹמָם חִתְּמוּ לָמוֹ “in the day they hide themselves,” properly “they shut up an enclosure around themselves.”

תָּכְנִית f.—(1) measure, structure, disposition, Eze. 43:10.
(2) perfect form, Eze. 28:12.​

Ezekiel 28:12, translated to say "sealest up the sum," actually says seals up the "perfect form" the measure, structure, divine disposition, of Adam's original body, which is the womb of the firstborn of creation, the Messiah, who, had not the desecration of that perfect form occurred, Genesis 2:21, would have given birth to Messiah on the first sabbath:

If Adam had not sinned the world would have entered the Messianic state on the first Sabbath after creation, with no historical process whatever.

Gershom Scholem, The Messianic Idea in Judaism, p. 46.​

Professor Scholem's statement is backed up by Jewish theology. Adam would have birthed Messiah with no historical process, no creation of Eve, no sealing up the disposition of Adam's divinely designed body, had not the messianic cherub, assigned to guard the birth of Messiah, conspired with Adam, to desecrate, seal, seal-up, the place where Messiah, rather than Eve, was divinely ordained to come forth on the first sabbath after Adam's creation, as the divine firstborn whom, which, the firstborn of creation, is later desecrated by the birth of the first murderer Cain.




John

 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Seems like you're writing your own scripture. By what authority do you speak?
He is. His thing is trying to syncretize Judaism and Christianity, mostly by interpolating or re-interpreting Jewish texts to conform to his theology.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
He is. His thing is trying to syncretize Judaism and Christianity, mostly by interpolating or re-interpreting Jewish texts to conform to his theology.

. . . Close. Except that I don't have a theology. Which is why I'm able to accept Jewish theology and Christian theology even though to those of a Jewish persuasion there is no legit Christian theology, and to those of a Christian bent, Jewish theology is incomplete or in error.

I believe both are complete and correct only when they are seen as a prism that only functions when both are accepted as equally valid.

Everything I write assumes Judaism is still, legitimately, and will for all eternity, be guarding the existence of Messiah. Everything I write assumes there is no genuinely irreconcilable chasm between Christianity and Judaism. The chasm is a product of ego. Where the ego is cut off, and disposed of, true theology, which is never personal, or ethnically derived, comes to light.

The chasm between Christianity and Judaism is a battle of egos more than sound exegesis.



John
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
The chasm between Christianity and Judaism is a battle of egos more than sound exegesis.
Not really. It is about the nature of Jesus, i.e. sound exegisis as to Christology.

However I accept that (non-believing) Jews and "Orthodox" Trinitarians are far more closely related than is commonly supposed, although (heretical) dispensationalism / premillennialism seems to have accepted its proximity to Judaism. Jews were looking for a Son of God (i.e. God the Son), a direct incarnation of God in the flesh, able to command and establish their kingdom on earth.

"Orthodox" Trinitarians try to pretend that Jesus was exactly that, i.e. what the Jews were looking for, i.e. a dual-natured (dyophysite) individual both man and God. The problem there is why his divine nature did not manifest it far more transparently in judgement, since God is a jealous God. If dyophysitism were the correct view of the Messiah, the Jews may have valid grounds for rejecting Christ as a Trinitarian theophany. Then it would be about egos.

Yet both Jews and Trinitarians alike have anathematized the third way, i.e. those who hold that Jesus was "just a man," and yet also the son of God i.e. having come from God, and been sent by God. To accept that is a matter of theology, of Christology , and of belief. That isn't about egos, but about the conception of the nature of the Messiah, which only allows for a yes/no faith based response.

The Trinitarian Christ would not have required faith because theophanies do not require faith, as sight-based. The human Christ requires faith, not egotism. That is the real Christianity.
 
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outlawState

Deism is dead
No they weren't. From whence cometh this idea?
Jhn 12:34
The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this ‘Son of Man'?” John 12;34.

The Jews were looking for a permanent Messiah who would re-establish their rule over the whole earth.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Jhn 12:34
The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this ‘Son of Man'?” John 12;34.

The Jews were looking for a permanent Messiah who would re-establish their rule over the whole earth.
Can you quote from the Jewish scriptures?
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh good, Tumah's here to debate too. I have to go to work anyway. Have fun!
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
... debate ...
= / =?

7051c51d755c7e02f99febd304a2ca22.jpg
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
. . . Close. Except that I don't have a theology. Which is why I'm able to accept Jewish theology and Christian theology even though to those of a Jewish persuasion there is no legit Christian theology, and to those of a Christian bent, Jewish theology is incomplete or in error.

I believe both are complete and correct only when they are seen as a prism that only functions when both are accepted as equally valid.

Everything I write assumes Judaism is still, legitimately, and will for all eternity, be guarding the existence of Messiah. Everything I write assumes there is no genuinely irreconcilable chasm between Christianity and Judaism. The chasm is a product of ego. Where the ego is cut off, and disposed of, true theology, which is never personal, or ethnically derived, comes to light.

The chasm between Christianity and Judaism is a battle of egos more than sound exegesis.



John
All of this here, is your theology.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
It's how you make a ≠ sign when you don't know the code for it or didn't think to Google it.
Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia pretty much sums up his credentials. Amongst these are :
On the basis that this Judaic conception of the Messiah, as viewed in Christian terms, is nothing but a fable, it is really not worth quarrelling over the exact details of someone whom will never exist, and I would not presume to lecture anyone on the subject. But as to the general picture of some God-ordained super-hero possessed with Herculean powers, the Judaic Messiah does infer some divine aspect, or unity with the divine, within the Trinitarian dyophysite concept that I referred to earlier.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia pretty much sums up his credentials. Amongst these are :
On the basis that this Judaic conception of the Messiah, as viewed in Christian terms, is nothing but a fable, it is really not worth quarrelling over the exact details of someone whom will never exist, and I would not presume to lecture anyone on the subject. But as to the general picture of some God-ordained super-hero possessed with Herculean powers, the Judaic Messiah does infer some divine aspect, or unity with the divine, within the Trinitarian dyophysite concept that I referred to earlier.
You've misunderstood 2 things:

1. My point was that Jews were not and do not expect a "son of G-d" or "G-d incarnate" as you originally claimed.

2. The items on this list are not those that are caused by the Messiah (excepting the first on the list), but events that were prophesied to occur during the Messianic era.​
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
You've misunderstood 2 things:

1. My point was that Jews were not and do not expect a "son of G-d" or "G-d incarnate" as you originally claimed.

2. The items on this list are not those that are caused by the Messiah (excepting the first on the list), but events that were prophesied to occur during the Messianic era.​
“The Lord said to me: “You are my son: this day have I begotten you’” (Ps. 2:7). I don't think you could deny this verse.

Your Messiah must wildly surpass the deeds attributed to all other temporal messiahs such as Cyrus, David etc. May be the issue is that whilst you claim only humanity for your Messiah, you also claim supernatural wonders.

All I am saying is that the "results" of what you claim for your Messiah are so astronomically large that most would envisage the need for a supernatural person possessed of some fusion with the divine, even if you confess only his humanity.

In that aspect, Trinitarianism is similar to Judaism in how it conceives the concept of the messiahship to work. Even if Judaism (sensibly) denies dyophysitism, there is a similarity in the attribution of vast worldwide supernatural forces at the Messiah's command, which surpass any other temporal Messiah by infinity. There is therefore an inference of dyophysitism, whether admitted or not. After all, we're not talking about casting out evil spirits from those with faith. We're talking about casting out evil spirits from "everybody." Is it by magic?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
“The Lord said to me: “You are my son: this day have I begotten you’” (Ps. 2:7). I don't think you could deny this verse.
I do not deny the verse exists. On the other hand, I don't see mention of the Messiah anywhere in that chapter either. So I don't really see how it relates to the subject at hand.

Your Messiah must wildly surpass the deeds attributed to all other temporal messiahs such as Cyrus, David etc. May be the issue is that whilst you claim only humanity for your Messiah, you also claim supernatural wonders.

All I am saying is that the "results" of what you claim for your Messiah are so astronomically large that most would envisage the need for a supernatural person possessed of some fusion with the divine, even if you confess only his humanity.
Can you give an example of the supernatural wonders you think our Messiah will perform?

In that aspect, Trinitarianism is similar to Judaism in how it conceives the concept of the messiahship to work. Even if Judaism (sensibly) denies dyophysitism, there is a similarity in the attribution of vast worldwide supernatural forces at the Messiah's command, which surpass any other temporal Messiah by infinity. There is therefore an inference of dyophysitism, whether admitted or not. After all, we're not talking about casting out evil spirits from those with faith. We're talking about casting out evil spirits from "everybody." Is it by magic?
I reckon you don't know as much about Jewish theology as you think you know and that in reality this comparison is not apt whatsoever.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
I do not deny the verse exists. On the other hand, I don't see mention of the Messiah anywhere in that chapter either. So I don't really see how it relates to the subject at hand.
4Q246, also known as the Son of God Text or the Aramaic Apocalypse, is one of the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran which is notable for an early Messianic mention of a Son of God (look it up on Wiki).

Also see Enoch Ch 46 for numerous references to a Son of man

"There I beheld the Ancient of days, whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was and why he accompanied the Ancient of days."

Can you give an example of the supernatural wonders you think our Messiah will perform?
They are listed in Wikipedia. Included are:
  • Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
  • There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

I reckon you don't know as much about Jewish theology as you think you know and that in reality this comparison is not apt whatsoever.
I don't pretend to any knowledge of Jewish "theology" other than it is based in the Old Testament +++.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Not really. It is about the nature of Jesus, i.e. sound exegisis as to Christology.

However I accept that (non-believing) Jews and "Orthodox" Trinitarians are far more closely related than is commonly supposed, although (heretical) dispensationalism / premillennialism seems to have accepted its proximity to Judaism. Jews were looking for a Son of God (i.e. God the Son), a direct incarnation of God in the flesh, able to command and establish their kingdom on earth.

"Orthodox" Trinitarians try to pretend that Jesus was exactly that, i.e. what the Jews were looking for, i.e. a dual-natured (dyophysite) individual both man and God. The problem there is why his divine nature did not manifest it far more transparently in judgement, since God is a jealous God. If dyophysitism were the correct view of the Messiah, the Jews may have valid grounds for rejecting Christ as a Trinitarian theophany. Then it would be about egos.

Yet both Jews and Trinitarians alike have anathematized the third way, i.e. those who hold that Jesus was "just a man," and yet also the son of God i.e. having come from God, and been sent by God. To accept that is a matter of theology, of Christology , and of belief. That isn't about egos, but about the conception of the nature of the Messiah, which only allows for a yes/no faith based response.

The Trinitarian Christ would not have required faith because theophanies do not require faith, as sight-based. The human Christ requires faith, not egotism. That is the real Christianity.

. . . Imo you have a lot of good stuff in there; much of it I agree with.



John
 
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