Shaivism/Vaishnavism

[SalixIncendium]

After reading a comment by one of our best know Saivites in another thread about not following a creator god, question popped into my head.

In my understanding, the Trimurti is Brahma (creator), Vishnu (preserver), and Shiva (destroyer). If one follows a Saivite path or a Vaishnava path, do they not recognize the other two aspects of the Trimurti?

 

[Shantanu]

After reading a comment by one of our best know Saivites in another thread about not following a creator god, question popped into my head.

In my understanding, the Trimurti is Brahma (creator), Vishnu (preserver), and Shiva (destroyer). If one follows a Saivite path or a Vaishnava path, do they not recognize the other two aspects of the Trimurti?

You are absolutely right. These are the three major dieties of the guna consciousness triad, Brahma representing sattvic guna, Vishnu representing rajasic guna and Shiva representing tamasic guna. Shiva worshippers like their deity are tamasic in nature, which is synonymous with ignorance. They are bursting with ego and pride and believe that they can hijack Hinduism through being a Saivite. Sattvic guna people worship truth and justice as their dharma and attain moksha through surrender to God by transcending their guna. Shiva worshippers are unable to transcend the guna and remain ignorant and evil as they have no concept of dharma. Rajasic (Vishnu) guna people are routinal in their outlook and are moderate Vaishnavites.

 

[Vinayaka]

After reading a comment by one of our best know Saivites in another thread about not following a creator god, question popped into my head.

In my understanding, the Trimurti is Brahma (creator), Vishnu (preserver), and Shiva (destroyer). If one follows a Saivite path or a Vaishnava path, do they not recognize the other two aspects of the Trimurti?

The Trimurti, although it does exist in Hindu scripture, isn't that important for most Hindus. It was brought to the encyclopedias of the west by non-Hindus who were looking for something comparable to the Christian trinity. So, in reality, it's not very common at all, but if a newcomer looks in Britannica or World Book, it'll be right up front.

In Hinduism, the Supreme god in each sect does all 3 of these aspects ... creation, preservation, and destruction. These are all poor translations, again made by non-Hindus. Much more accurate word, in my view, are emanation (issuing forth), sustaining, and dissolution (withdrawing). So in my sect, Siva has 5 powers (graces) ... emanation, sustaining, dissolution, revealing, and concealing. Similarly, in Vaishnavism, Vishnu (or Krishna, or Rama) Vishnu does it all. Same for Shaktites.

Of course there is also overlap, and various seemingly endless combinations of ideas.

If it was me you were referring to, I don't believe in a creator god separate from his creation, (which is the more western way of perceiving creation) but I do believe Siva emanates. He is All and in All.

Yes, some people also believe in the trimurti and classify people accordingly. That's not a very common sense of it, but it is there.

 

[Shantanu]

The Trimurti, although it does exist in Hindu scripture, isn't that important for most Hindus. It was brought to the encyclopedias of the west by non-Hindus who were looking for something comparable to the Christian trinity. So, in reality, it's not very common at all, but if a newcomer looks in Britannica or World Book, it'll be right up front.

In Hinduism, the Supreme god in each sect does all 3 of these aspects ... creation, preservation, and destruction. These are all poor translations, again made by non-Hindus. Much more accurate word, in my view, are emanation (issuing forth), sustaining, and dissolution (withdrawing). So in my sect, Siva has 5 powers (graces) ... emanation, sustaining, dissolution, revealing, and concealing. Similarly, in Vaishnavism, Vishnu (or Krishna, or Rama) Vishnu does it all. Same for Shaktites.

Of course there is also overlap, and various seemingly endless combinations of ideas.

If it was me you were referring to, I don't believe in a creator god separate from his creation, (which is the more western way of perceiving creation) but I do believe Siva emanates. He is All and in All.

Yes, some people also believe in the trimurti and classify people accordingly. That's not a very common sense of it, but it is there.

How many Saivites are there in India?

 

[Vinayaka]

I would just like to add that the vast majority of Hindus see other sects as their brothers and sisters, in a spirit of Hindu solidarity and tolerance. Still, there are few who feel their view is better than all the rest, and take pains to belittle the other sects in order to make theirs look better. But that's just really rare. Most of us, when it gets right down to real gist of it, see the Supreme God, whether we call it Siva, Vishnu, or Shakti, as one and the same.

 

[Shantanu]

I would just like to add that the vast majority of Hindus see other sects as their brothers and sisters,

The vast majority of Hindus in India judge people on the basis of their actions as to whether they are dharmic or not, not whether they adhere to a particular sect which means nothing to anyone except for the sect involved. Even ISKCON is ignored because it does not focus on dharma as the overriding duty of man.

 

[ajay0]

After reading a comment by one of our best know Saivites in another thread about not following a creator god, question popped into my head.

In my understanding, the Trimurti is Brahma (creator), Vishnu (preserver), and Shiva (destroyer). If one follows a Saivite path or a Vaishnava path, do they not recognize the other two aspects of the Trimurti?

As a follower of the Shaivite path influenced by the Vedas, Lingayats and Prajapita Brahmakumaris, I consider Shiva to be a cosmic pillar of light as per the Vedic teachings, and incorporeal. I do not identify Shiva with Shankar, who is the deity of destruction with the cobra in the neck and trident, and consider such associations to have come into being due to Tantrik influence.

In the orthodox streams of Shaivism (which identifies Shiva with Shankar) and Vaishnavism, there had been some conflict in the past over sectarian supremacy, which is now subdued and considered irrevalent.

The Puranas state that Parashurama, Rama, Krishna and Vishnu were worshippers of Shiva. And ancient temples in India corresponding with the said figures have associations with nearby Shiva temples as well.

Brahma's temples are just one or two in India, with one of them being in Pushkar, Rajasthan, and hence Brahma for that reason has not been involved in such aforementioned sectarian conflicts for supremacy.

 

[Vinayaka]

How many Saivites are there in India?

I don't know. There is a lot of overlap. But according to this ... Hinduism it's about 240 million. Vaishnavism leads the way with about 600 million. Shaktism is up there too. In my limited experience, many folks don't know, or don't care, and are happy to be 'village' Hindus. Many are also Smarta influenced.

What, then, is your background?

 

[Vinayaka]

The vast majority of Hindus in India judge people on the basis of their actions as to whether they are dharmic or not, not whether they adhere to a particular sect which means nothing to anyone except for the sect involved. Even ISKCON is ignored because it does not focus on dharma as the overriding duty of man.

Yes that's very true.

 

[Vinayaka]

As a follower of the Shaivite path influenced by the Vedas, Lingayats and Prajapita Brahmakumaris, I consider Shiva to be a cosmic pillar of light as per the Vedic teachings, and incorporeal. I do not identify Shiva with Shankar, who is the deity of destruction with the cobra in the neck and trident.

It was quite some time before I realised that that was even Shiva. it's the Puranic version, totally anthropomorphised. I first met Shiva as Nataraja, then as the Lingam, later as Bhairava, Dakshinamurthi, and Aardhinarisvara.

 

[Shantanu]

I don't know. There is a lot of overlap. But according to this ... Hinduism it's about 240 million. Vaishnavism leads the way with about 600 million. Shaktism is up there too. In my limited experience, many folks don't know, or don't care, and are happy to be 'village' Hindus. Many are also Smarta influenced.

What, then, is your background?

According to your classification I would classify myself as a Village Hindu born into a Brahmin family in India, and I live by that religion even though I have been in the UK for 45 years. I practiced satyadvaitism and the only purpose of my life is to live to the truth that I discover for myself.

 

[Vinayaka]

According to your classification I would classify myself as a Village Hindu born into a Brahmin family in India, and I live by that religion even though I have been in the UK for 45 years.

I thought you were an existentialist.

 

[Shantanu]

I thought you were an existentialist.

I must survive to lead as long a life as possible, Yes.

 

[ajay0]

It was quite some time before I realised that that was even Shiva. it's the Puranic version, totally anthropomorphised. I first met Shiva as Nataraja, then as the Lingam, later as Bhairava, Dakshinamurthi, and Aardhinarisvara.

Yeah, Shiva is the only Hindu deity who is revered as non-iconic, non-anthropomorphic. Even in the Puranas as well, Shiva has been perceived as a cosmic pillar of light, and it is only in some other Puranas, that Shiva has been anthropomorphised, due to tantrik influence or for projecting wisdom in the form of metaphors or metaphorical stories.

In all ancient Shiva temples, Shiva is worshipped as in the form of an oval shaped stone, and not in an anthropomorphised form.

 

[Shantanu]

Yes that's very true.

I thought I should also point out that so long as I continue with my surrender to God and looking out for messages from Him I am destined to find the truth of the purpose of existence.

 

[Viraja]

Did you know: Nayanmars or the 63 saints who are ardent Shaivites have also sung the glory of Vishnu sometimes. (some of them).

Vice versa with Alwars (12 devotees of Vishnu). They have sung in praise of Shivam too.

 

[Vinayaka]

Did you know: Nayanmars or the 63 saints who are ardent Shaivites have also sung the glory of Vishnu sometimes. (some of them).

Vice versa with Alwars (12 devotees of Vishnu). They have sung in praise of Shivam too.

Thanks. I did not know that, but I believe it. The ability to see God everywhere might do that to you.

 

[Jainarayan]

If one follows a Saivite path or a Vaishnava path, do they not recognize the other two aspects of the Trimurti?

I am Vaishnava, but I pray to and worship Shiva, and Devi, also. I believe they are all three sides of the same One. They together constitute for me the Godhead. That said I put less emphasis on Brahmā mainly for two reasons:

1. He is not eternal or immortal; he is born for each universe.
2. His work is largely done.

I don't consider him the creator of the universe, just what's in the already created universe. I saw a Youtube video that hit the nail on the head. The mythology (collection of stories, not the pejorative use of the word) says the universe was born from a lotus that sprang from Vishnu's navel - one of his epithets is padmanābha, lotus-navel - wherein Brahmā was seated. The sprouting of the lotus was equated to the Big Bang. It sprang from something that already existed, but was from beyond time and space, as Vishnu, Shiva and Devi are. Brahmā is sometimes equated or conflated with Vishvakarma ("all-doer") as the cosmic architect, the maker of all.

OK, so the universe and everything in it is created. Shiva replaces and recreates what was old and worn out. Why not Brahmā creating? Good question. I think he really does the bulk of his work at the beginning. I think of a star going super- or hypernova. It's eached the end of its life and is worn out and tired. It has to be dissolved, destroyed, swept away to make room for new stars and new life. So it explodes and creates new elements to create new planets and life. That's Shiva at work. I don't know what the scriptures say, but I believe he is always doing his tāṇḍava dance, not just at the end of the universe. Vishnu and Shiva have on-going work in creating, replacing, dissolving, maintaining the current universe.

Ok, I pretty much made that all up as I went along because one of the many beauties of Hinduism is that there's really no dogma on it. Unless totally outrageous, there's plenty of room for personal interpretations,