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Shaivism - Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Bhadr
- Start date
Thank you for adding this thread to the already diverse DIR. The soul of the Saiva runs deep so it's a long story here which I rarely get into. I wouldn't want to bore anyone. At age 20, after a childhood in a very rural setting in North America, I encountered Siva in the form of Nataraja at a store. He stared mystically and requested this person of this lifetime to buy that form of him. Although I had already intuited he was in and through all things, that was the first manifest version I encountered. Within a year, He lead me to my Guru, completing my prayers from the previous lifetime to find the same lineage, or similar. Soon after we joined a temple building community (Sri Lankan) here in the west, and somehow, with Ganesha's grace, managed to aid in building a true Saiva (non-Smarta, non liberal) koyil that has served western Canada for some 20 + years.
Siva is the soul of my soul, and Nataraja remains the main focus at home and elsewhere.
You are in B'lore, no?
Siva is the soul of my soul, and Nataraja remains the main focus at home and elsewhere.
You are in B'lore, no?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Belong to a Shaiva Kashmiri brahmin family though I have turned into an atheist advaitist. Not very far from following Kashmir Shaivism. Names in the family make interesting reading, GF Vishweshwar, Uncle Omkar, Father Kailas, self Amar, brothers Rameshwar, Vishwa, Maheshwar, Som (all ending in Nath). Family deity - Rameshwar Nath, a small temple in my home-town, Jodhpur, Rajasthan.
Sri Ananda Natarajaya Namaha
Vinayaka ji,
Thank you very much for telling us.Few people get the opportunity to take part in building a proper temple,you are blessed to do so.
Nope ji,not from B'lore but some relatives live there.
Hi Kalyan ji,
I know about Sri Tirumoolar and Sri Tirumantiram(read a bit of it).
One can write endlessly about what the Shiva Lingam is but to know to the actual meaning one must become a 'Siddha' Shaiva and that requires dedicated study,intense devotion to Lord Shiva accompanied by sincere Sadhana.
To satisfy your curiosity,I'll share a short summary from Sri Linga Maha Purana.
Shabda brahmatanum sakshat shabdabrahmaprakashakam
varnavayavam avyakta lakshanam bahudha sthitam
The Supreme Lord whose body is Shabda Brahman,
Who is the revealer of Shabda Brahman,
Whose limbs are the letters,
Whose characteristics are unmanifest but Who manifests in diverse ways.
akarokaramakaraM sthulam sukshmam paratparam
omkararupam rigvaktram samajihvasamanvitam
yajurvedamahagrivam atharvahridayam vibhum
pradhanapurushatitam pralayotpattivarjitam
Who is constituted by the sounds ‘A’,’U’,’M’,
Who is gross as well as subtle,
Who is greater than the greatest,
Whose form is “OM”.
Whose face is the Rig Veda, tongue the Sama Veda,
throat the Yajur Veda,and heart the Atharva Veda,
Who is the Lord beyond Pradhana and Purusha,
Who is devoid of birth and death.
sargasya pratisargasya sthiteh karta maheshvarah
sarge cha rajasa yuktah sattvasthah pratipalane
pratisarge tamodriktah sa eva trividhah kramat
Adikarta cha bhutanam samharta paripalakah
tasmanmaheshvaro devo brahmanoadhipatih shivah
sadashivo bhavo vishnur brahma sarvatmako yatah
sargapratishthasamhara lilartham lingarupinam
The Great Lord Maheshvara is the sole agent for this creation, sustenance and dissolution.
In creation he assumes Rajoguna,in sustenance Sattva and Tamas in dissolution.
He alone possess this subtle nature in due order.
He is the first creator of all beings, their protector and absorber.
So Lord Maheshvara is the overlord of Brahma.
He is also known as Shiva, SadaShiva, Bhava, Vishnu and Brahma since He is all.
He assumes the form of the Linga merely for the sport of creation, sustenance and dissolution.
paranandatmakam lingam vishuddham shivamaksharam
nishkalam sarvagam jneyam yoginam hridi samsthitam
The Linga is pure, auspicious and imperishable.
It is exceedingly blissful in nature,
the form devoid of attributes is all pervasive.
It is always stationed in the heart of Yogins.
sa svechchaya shivah sakshad devya sardham sthitah prabhuh
samtaranartham cha shivah sadasadvyaktivarjitah
Shiva, the Lord, devoid of Sat and Asat is stationed out of His own free will along with the Goddess for the protection of the world.
Aupmanyav Ji,
Oh,you are a Kashmiri Shaiva!
All family members have names of Lord Shiva,a wonderful way to remember that Lord Shiva is in all.
Hmm.. an atheist advaitist,ok,well call you a renegade Shaiva from now on! Just kidding.
Yes, Shiva Lingam is pure and holy and I heard that Tirumular refers to it as Jyotirupa which indicates the form of Jyoti but not sure of his work.....also do shaivas make any distinction between SadaSiva and Rudra(Siva)
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
No. Why? Shiva is Brahman (I too am that). I have no dispute with that.Hmm.. an atheist advaitist, ok, well call you a renegade Shaiva from now on! Just kidding.
However, the most beautiful name for me is 'Sivaramakrishnan'. I know no better name.
When both are the same (since the time Aryans merged with the indigenous people
), what distinction can there be?
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Okay so a tiny bit of a (spiritual) life story...
My parents were never really religious in any way. Well, my father was after a certain point but for half of my childhood I had a stepfather and so for most of my growing up I was isolated from it. My dad's religion influenced me some but really slowly I just faded from that in my mid to late teens as I felt drawn to ideas like pantheism. Near the end of highschool I started to explore western occultism and stuck with that for a while.
Then I was introduced to esoteric Buddhism... I think I was almost initiated at one point by a Bodhisattva. Anyways from that Boddhisattva I learned about Tantra and the parallels it had with what I was already doing (I had been divining geometric representations in my own self created religious system without the knowledge that it mirrored almost exactly Tantric mandalas). He eventually stopped trying to teach me as he had other responsibilities and we had some disagreements on philosophical foundation. I was more drawn to Shaivism anyway of which he taught me some (I did some rituals and other stuff at his instruction) because of Kaula's/Kapalika's influence and vice versa on Vajrayana. I was also very immature and hadn't worked out how to deal with my anger issues at the time, so that didn't help either.
After that I kind of didn't do any studying but just kept practicing what I knew. Then I kind of slowly started to practice less and less for a while. After that I started to put all my spare mental and spiritual energy into trying to fix my life. The latter part of that was when I started doing music so that took even more energy away from trying to study anything. Even during all that I still considered myself firstly a Shaivite/Hindu before anything else, just a rather uneducated one lol. I had at least some understanding I guess but not as much as I probably could of. Anyways eventually I decided to study again and explored more orthodox schools of thought... I liked the veneration of Shiva but the orthodoxy didn't click with me as much as I had tried. I was really kind of into Vendanta and Shaivite yoga for a while but as I said eventually that failed to really click like Tantra had for me in the past and so I started to get drawn back to that.
In the last few months I've felt myself drawn more so than before back to Kashmir Shaivism. The weird thing is I always knew it was closest to what I believed before and found in my divination when I was an occultist, although my deities and symbols were different. I figured to go with with Shaivism though as it's a much more thought out than anything I could figure out on my own and I feel a strong draw to the feminine aspect of Shiva (Kali Maa) and find Shaivism to be the most compelling. I'm not sure why, I just do though. I guess it just took some time to sort out myself spiritually and explore other things to be sure before coming back to it. So either way I guess I've been doing this for 5 or so years with small diversions here and there.
Anyways that's how I got interested in Shiva and a bit' about myself. As far as what my tradition is... I can't say it's particularly one. I'm somewhat universalistic in my approach but I would have to say by far that Kashmir Shaivism is closest to what I believe. After I study the Sutras I will probably want to study Kaula but at this point I don't really know. It always feels like a sea of ideas that's easy to get lost in.
So uh, ya that's probably a lot more than you asked for
But it's how/why I was drawn to Shiva as best as I can explain it.I want to add this for our shaiva friends, I have taken from 1 site which I went through around 3 or 4 years back.
Tirumantram by Tirumular(6000 BC) is one of the most important of the Tamil works on mamtrams handed down to us from out saints and seers.
Scholars hold conflicting views on the date of composition of Tirumantrarn, and, whether or not it is a translation from Sanskrit. It is the privilege of scholars to disagree. We shall not here enter into academic controversies. However, it is well that we seek to have some idea of the social environment of the age in which Tirumular lived and produced his magnum opus.
Tirumular’s origin, the circumstances that led to his leaving Kailas and to his settling down in the land of the Tamils the social forces that inspired him to produce the immortal Tirumantram, all these are lost in the mists of antiquity. We do not even know the real name of this great sage. Tirumular is the name be acquired 1ater when he became a shepherd. No historical background is possible. We have, therefore, to turn to another great treatise, Periya Puranam, for what it has to say on the story of his life.
The sage, says Periya Puramam, came to Tamil Nad from Kailas to meet his friend Agastya. After offering worship at several famous shrines, he reached Sattanur, a village on the banks of the Kaveri, where he witnessed the tragic spectacle of a herd of cows weeping over the corpse of a shepherd. Evidently, the shepherd had met with sudden death, and the cows, feeling that some great tragedy had befallen their master, stood hovering about the body, unwilling to move away. They smelled it, and tears rolled down their long white cheeks like silvery rivulets.
This moving sight struck a responsive chord in the sage, and he decided to end the agony of the cows. As one who had mastered the eight siddhis, he knew the technique of moving from one body to another. He cast aside his body in a safe place, and penetrated into the shepherd’s body. The shepherd immediately came to life and got up. The cows danced with joy on seeing their master alive again.
The sage who now lived in the body of the shepherd (his name was Mulan) followed the cows back to the village in the enening. But he stood in the street without entering Mulan’s house. Mulan’s wife who was awaiting her husband’s return came out, and was puzzled to find him standing in the street . She called him in, and moved up to take his hand. But he stepped aside, and asked her not to touch him. He denied he had no relationship whatsoever with her. Then he entered into a neighbouring mutt, and was soon immersed in deep contemplation.
Mulan’s wife would not be consoled easily. How could the poor woman know that her husband was no more and that another saintly soul was now dwelling in his body? She complained to her relatives against her husband’s behaviour and cried that he had lost his senses. Some of the elders of the village who saw him at the mutt were wise enough to perceive that the shepherd was in a state of samadhi. They, therefore, asked her not to disturb him, but to leave him alone.
When the sage emerged from contemplation the next morning, he straightaway went to the spot where he had left his former body. But it was not to be found there! He then realised that he was destined to spend the rest of his life as Mulan the shepherd, that it was Gods will that he should fulfil His purpose as a shepherd.
Known thenceforth as Tirumular (derived after the shepherd’s name Mulan), he left Sattanur and reached Tiruvavaduthurai, where he sat under a Bodhi tree and passed into a state of deep contemplation. Once a year lie woke up, and each time he composed a stanza containing the cream of his spiritual experiences during the year. It took 3000 years for him to compose the 3000 stanzas comprising Tirurnantram which astounds shaiva siddhanta
Tirumantram by Tirumular(6000 BC) is one of the most important of the Tamil works on mamtrams handed down to us from out saints and seers.
Scholars hold conflicting views on the date of composition of Tirumantrarn, and, whether or not it is a translation from Sanskrit. It is the privilege of scholars to disagree. We shall not here enter into academic controversies. However, it is well that we seek to have some idea of the social environment of the age in which Tirumular lived and produced his magnum opus.
Tirumular’s origin, the circumstances that led to his leaving Kailas and to his settling down in the land of the Tamils the social forces that inspired him to produce the immortal Tirumantram, all these are lost in the mists of antiquity. We do not even know the real name of this great sage. Tirumular is the name be acquired 1ater when he became a shepherd. No historical background is possible. We have, therefore, to turn to another great treatise, Periya Puranam, for what it has to say on the story of his life.
The sage, says Periya Puramam, came to Tamil Nad from Kailas to meet his friend Agastya. After offering worship at several famous shrines, he reached Sattanur, a village on the banks of the Kaveri, where he witnessed the tragic spectacle of a herd of cows weeping over the corpse of a shepherd. Evidently, the shepherd had met with sudden death, and the cows, feeling that some great tragedy had befallen their master, stood hovering about the body, unwilling to move away. They smelled it, and tears rolled down their long white cheeks like silvery rivulets.
This moving sight struck a responsive chord in the sage, and he decided to end the agony of the cows. As one who had mastered the eight siddhis, he knew the technique of moving from one body to another. He cast aside his body in a safe place, and penetrated into the shepherd’s body. The shepherd immediately came to life and got up. The cows danced with joy on seeing their master alive again.
The sage who now lived in the body of the shepherd (his name was Mulan) followed the cows back to the village in the enening. But he stood in the street without entering Mulan’s house. Mulan’s wife who was awaiting her husband’s return came out, and was puzzled to find him standing in the street . She called him in, and moved up to take his hand. But he stepped aside, and asked her not to touch him. He denied he had no relationship whatsoever with her. Then he entered into a neighbouring mutt, and was soon immersed in deep contemplation.
Mulan’s wife would not be consoled easily. How could the poor woman know that her husband was no more and that another saintly soul was now dwelling in his body? She complained to her relatives against her husband’s behaviour and cried that he had lost his senses. Some of the elders of the village who saw him at the mutt were wise enough to perceive that the shepherd was in a state of samadhi. They, therefore, asked her not to disturb him, but to leave him alone.
When the sage emerged from contemplation the next morning, he straightaway went to the spot where he had left his former body. But it was not to be found there! He then realised that he was destined to spend the rest of his life as Mulan the shepherd, that it was Gods will that he should fulfil His purpose as a shepherd.
Known thenceforth as Tirumular (derived after the shepherd’s name Mulan), he left Sattanur and reached Tiruvavaduthurai, where he sat under a Bodhi tree and passed into a state of deep contemplation. Once a year lie woke up, and each time he composed a stanza containing the cream of his spiritual experiences during the year. It took 3000 years for him to compose the 3000 stanzas comprising Tirurnantram which astounds shaiva siddhanta
Green patina is an essential attribute of copper. In like manner, ignorance is a basic attribute of the soul. Tirumular: “God, therefore, gave me birth to save my soul. He showed me the way to gnana (true knowledge). Even as a crystal reflects the colour of the precious stone placed on it, my soul sparkled with the light He showed within me.”
The Absolute Being, soul and impurity are eternal and coeval. When God in His infinite mercy showers His grace on the soul, the latter is freed of its ignorance and impurity.
The sun of God rises over the ocean of mercy, dispelling the darkness of mala (impurity), which is classified into anava, maya and karma.
When a convex lens and cotton are placed side by side, the former cannot by itself burn the latter; it can burn the cotton only with the aid of sun - beams. Though the soul and impurity dwell together, the former cannot by it self scorch the latter without God’s grace.
The soul, in association with the body, gets itself inextricably entangled in the activities of the five sensory organs, and struggles in vain to find a way out. The Guru (Teacher) however assists the soul in shedding its impurities. It is, therefore, the path of wisdom to meet the Guru, and to hear and ponder over his utterances.
Those who receive such guidance from the Guru are called the Sivayogis. Their souls ultimately get themselves merged in the Absolute Being and remain statuesque.
It is Sivayogis who can witness Siva’s cosmic dance. It is they who can see Sivalogam here and now. Such men are called Siddhar. Mukthar and Nirnalar.
Sivayogis are those who have transcended the thirty-six Tattvas and seen the Sivam beyond. They see all motion as emanating from Sivam, and, therefore, they themselves remain motionless. They may even be styled idlers! They dwell in the limitless expanse of gnana, and are enveloped in its profound quietude. However, even while thus seemingly asleep, they comprehend all cosmic activities as taking place within themselves. But their senses are not tied to worldly objects. Even as the tortoise contracts its limbs within the shell, the sensory perceptions of Sivayogis stay dormant and withdrawn. Like salt dissolved into water, their souls lose their separate characteristics and become one with Sivam
The Absolute Being, soul and impurity are eternal and coeval. When God in His infinite mercy showers His grace on the soul, the latter is freed of its ignorance and impurity.
The sun of God rises over the ocean of mercy, dispelling the darkness of mala (impurity), which is classified into anava, maya and karma.
When a convex lens and cotton are placed side by side, the former cannot by itself burn the latter; it can burn the cotton only with the aid of sun - beams. Though the soul and impurity dwell together, the former cannot by it self scorch the latter without God’s grace.
The soul, in association with the body, gets itself inextricably entangled in the activities of the five sensory organs, and struggles in vain to find a way out. The Guru (Teacher) however assists the soul in shedding its impurities. It is, therefore, the path of wisdom to meet the Guru, and to hear and ponder over his utterances.
Those who receive such guidance from the Guru are called the Sivayogis. Their souls ultimately get themselves merged in the Absolute Being and remain statuesque.
It is Sivayogis who can witness Siva’s cosmic dance. It is they who can see Sivalogam here and now. Such men are called Siddhar. Mukthar and Nirnalar.
Sivayogis are those who have transcended the thirty-six Tattvas and seen the Sivam beyond. They see all motion as emanating from Sivam, and, therefore, they themselves remain motionless. They may even be styled idlers! They dwell in the limitless expanse of gnana, and are enveloped in its profound quietude. However, even while thus seemingly asleep, they comprehend all cosmic activities as taking place within themselves. But their senses are not tied to worldly objects. Even as the tortoise contracts its limbs within the shell, the sensory perceptions of Sivayogis stay dormant and withdrawn. Like salt dissolved into water, their souls lose their separate characteristics and become one with Sivam
I especially like this from Tirumoolar, I sometimes feel, our dharma is so huge, that it always surprises me, so many sages and saints trying to uplift us with loves of over a million mothers. No religion on earth I think even comes close to vast sanatana dharma, all are like sand particles before the universe like sanatana dharma.
PERISHABILITY OF THE BODY:
Two vessels were made of clay. They looked hard and well-made. Unfortunately, rains came. The vessels broke up, and were again dissolved into clay.
Two poles were erected over which a beam was laid. Thirty-two rafters were arranged on the sides, and finally the roofing was made. After some years the roof was motheaten and rendered useless. The master then left the house and would not return. His wife and children however stayed on, and would not follow him.
The wounds became gangrenous. The joints loosened. The frame began disintegrating. They felt the tip of his nose to feel the breath. Then they threw him out. Crows and vultures fed on the body.
He ordered a rich meal to be prepared. Dinner over, he was talking to the lady of his love. Suddenly he felt a sharp pain in the chest. He died.
The young man married the girl he loved most. Their love prospered for a while, but soon began to wither and shrink. He died. They carried him to the funeral ground and burnt him there.
The fort was strong, as well as beautiful. Ninety-six persons lived in it. The fort crumbled down, and all the ninety-six ran away.
He was the chief of the village. He used to travel in a palanquin. But in the end they carried him in a different type of palanquin a wooden stretcher. The villagers followed, blowing shells and conches. Thus ended his travels.
He must needs leave his beloved wife in the house. He must needs leave behind everything else, his cows, house, and all other possessions. They carried him away on a stretcher, bathed the body, put sacramental rice into the mouth, burnt it. They did not think of him again
He was a mighty monarch, ruling over many kingdoms. His sceptre and crown, his horse and his sword, they are all here, but he has been taken out. What does it matter now if crowsand vultures eat him? Of what avail is it if milk is sprinkled over his body? What does it matter if lie is scoffed at?
PERISHABILITY OF THE BODY:
Two vessels were made of clay. They looked hard and well-made. Unfortunately, rains came. The vessels broke up, and were again dissolved into clay.
Two poles were erected over which a beam was laid. Thirty-two rafters were arranged on the sides, and finally the roofing was made. After some years the roof was motheaten and rendered useless. The master then left the house and would not return. His wife and children however stayed on, and would not follow him.
The wounds became gangrenous. The joints loosened. The frame began disintegrating. They felt the tip of his nose to feel the breath. Then they threw him out. Crows and vultures fed on the body.
He ordered a rich meal to be prepared. Dinner over, he was talking to the lady of his love. Suddenly he felt a sharp pain in the chest. He died.
The young man married the girl he loved most. Their love prospered for a while, but soon began to wither and shrink. He died. They carried him to the funeral ground and burnt him there.
The fort was strong, as well as beautiful. Ninety-six persons lived in it. The fort crumbled down, and all the ninety-six ran away.
He was the chief of the village. He used to travel in a palanquin. But in the end they carried him in a different type of palanquin a wooden stretcher. The villagers followed, blowing shells and conches. Thus ended his travels.
He must needs leave his beloved wife in the house. He must needs leave behind everything else, his cows, house, and all other possessions. They carried him away on a stretcher, bathed the body, put sacramental rice into the mouth, burnt it. They did not think of him again
He was a mighty monarch, ruling over many kingdoms. His sceptre and crown, his horse and his sword, they are all here, but he has been taken out. What does it matter now if crowsand vultures eat him? Of what avail is it if milk is sprinkled over his body? What does it matter if lie is scoffed at?
Kalyan ji,
Yes,Sri Tirumular said that Shivalingam is Jyotirupa.
Some traditions do.(Not in the way that Aup ji thinks but in the sense you asked)
Shiva,Sadasiva and Rudra are both same and different according to the context.
Aupji,
Here is a nice one of Bhagavan Nataraja for you.
Mandi ji,Okay so a tiny bit of a (spiritual) life story...
My parents were never really religious in any way. Well, my father was after a certain point but for half of my childhood I had a stepfather and so for most of my growing up I was isolated from it. My dad's religion influenced me some but really slowly I just faded from that in my mid to late teens as I felt drawn to ideas like pantheism. Near the end of highschool I started to explore western occultism and stuck with that for a while.
Then I was introduced to esoteric Buddhism... I think I was almost initiated at one point by a Bodhisattva. Anyways from that Boddhisattva I learned about Tantra and the parallels it had with what I was already doing (I had been divining geometric representations in my own self created religious system without the knowledge that it mirrored almost exactly Tantric mandalas). He eventually stopped trying to teach me as he had other responsibilities and we had some disagreements on philosophical foundation. I was more drawn to Shaivism anyway of which he taught me some (I did some rituals and other stuff at his instruction) because of Kaula's/Kapalika's influence and vice versa on Vajrayana. I was also very immature and hadn't worked out how to deal with my anger issues at the time, so that didn't help either.
After that I kind of didn't do any studying but just kept practicing what I knew. Then I kind of slowly started to practice less and less for a while. After that I started to put all my spare mental and spiritual energy into trying to fix my life. The latter part of that was when I started doing music so that took even more energy away from trying to study anything. Even during all that I still considered myself firstly a Shaivite/Hindu before anything else, just a rather uneducated one lol. I had at least some understanding I guess but not as much as I probably could of. Anyways eventually I decided to study again and explored more orthodox schools of thought... I liked the veneration of Shiva but the orthodoxy didn't click with me as much as I had tried. I was really kind of into Vendanta and Shaivite yoga for a while but as I said eventually that failed to really click like Tantra had for me in the past and so I started to get drawn back to that.
In the last few months I've felt myself drawn more so than before back to Kashmir Shaivism. The weird thing is I always knew it was closest to what I believed before and found in my divination when I was an occultist, although my deities and symbols were different. I figured to go with with Shaivism though as it's a much more thought out than anything I could figure out on my own and I feel a strong draw to the feminine aspect of Shiva (Kali Maa) and find Shaivism to be the most compelling. I'm not sure why, I just do though. I guess it just took some time to sort out myself spiritually and explore other things to be sure before coming back to it. So either way I guess I've been doing this for 5 or so years with small diversions here and there.
Anyways that's how I got interested in Shiva and a bit' about myself. As far as what my tradition is... I can't say it's particularly one. I'm somewhat universalistic in my approach but I would have to say by far that Kashmir Shaivism is closest to what I believe. After I study the Sutras I will probably want to study Kaula but at this point I don't really know. It always feels like a sea of ideas that's easy to get lost in.
So uh, ya that's probably a lot more than you asked for
Thanks for sharing your journey with us.I hope you have found the right school and I wish you success.
I didn't read much about Kashmira Shaivam but I heard that Utpaladevacharya's Sri Shiva Stotravali and Somanandacharya's Shiva Drishti are great works.
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Kalyan ji,
Thanks a lot for posting these jems from Sri Tirumoolar._/\_
Yes,many noble souls and so much wisdom they left for all of us.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Thanks for the Nataraja image, but I need to ask you as to what was the problem with that photo of the bowler Laxman Sivaramakrishnan (though I have deleted the photo as per your request)? Do not you see Siva in him? He entertained us for a few years with his craft and still is a part of Indian cricket. Is this the problem that Adi Sankara faced when he confronted the chandala?Aupji,
Laxman Sivaramarksihnan
Tests 9 Wickets 26 Best 6/64
ODIs 16 Wickets 15 Best 3/35
Which chapter and verse? I'll go look. It's pretty long to try to find anything specific.
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