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Sexism and Traditional Roles

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
"So, you're pretty much free like, all the time, right?"

Words from a teacher to me this week, regarding setting up a meeting regarding a school issue.

"Sure, I'll pencil you in sometime after I make lunch, do a math lesson with another child, and clean the cat puke off the couch, and before I catch the bigger one as he attempt to run down the street, start supper, and pick up the toys for the 15th time today."

Well, that was what I wanted to say. What I said was actually closer to a polite correction that I did indeed have things to do, and that while I was willing to be flexible, my time isn't just a free-for-all.

I am a homemaker(preferred term domestic engineer). I have been in this line of work a year or two short of a decade, and in this time, have found that I've encountered sexism(if this is the proper term in this context) from time to time.

There are the offhanded remarks about having an easy life doing nothing, insinuations that I'm lazy and don't want to 'work', admonishments that I should want 'more' for myself(please, I have enough), or comments that I'm wasting my life. The comments can come from anywhere, but I find they most frequently come from other women, generally under 60.

While we fight for a woman's right to secure any job she desires, and for equal pay(as I believe we should), why is it we disparage women who may choose a 'traditional' role for themselves? Are we still trying to pigeon-hole women into behaving a way we(as a society) think they should?

I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar. I'm not a man(at least not this time around), so I'm unsure if there's any equivalent.
This sounds like my wife 30 years ago. She was a domestic engineer for her entire career, exceptin' the jobs she had before we were married, and about 6 months after, before kiddies came along. Yes she faced the same kinds of negative commenting, but eventually learned to ignore it or avoid it. One of the worst situations was if she came to my social staff parties at school. Since I worked in elementary school, she had to face quite a few working women, and yes she got that. Not all women, but many. I took it too, as occasionally I'd get accused of chauvinism, just for us having made that decision.
I personally think you're doing a wonderful thing. Women working outside the homes only began with the wartime support, it's a recent phenomena on this planet. My mother never worked outside the home, but we were on a farm, so she worked incredibly hard, as she had designated duties on the farm, besides the raising of children.
Please don't get discouraged, and thank you on behalf of society.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
"So, you're pretty much free like, all the time, right?"

Words from a teacher to me this week, regarding setting up a meeting regarding a school issue.

"Sure, I'll pencil you in sometime after I make lunch, do a math lesson with another child, and clean the cat puke off the couch, and before I catch the bigger one as he attempt to run down the street, start supper, and pick up the toys for the 15th time today."

Well, that was what I wanted to say. What I said was actually closer to a polite correction that I did indeed have things to do, and that while I was willing to be flexible, my time isn't just a free-for-all.

I am a homemaker(preferred term domestic engineer). I have been in this line of work a year or two short of a decade, and in this time, have found that I've encountered sexism(if this is the proper term in this context) from time to time.

There are the offhanded remarks about having an easy life doing nothing, insinuations that I'm lazy and don't want to 'work', admonishments that I should want 'more' for myself(please, I have enough), or comments that I'm wasting my life. The comments can come from anywhere, but I find they most frequently come from other women, generally under 60.

While we fight for a woman's right to secure any job she desires, and for equal pay(as I believe we should), why is it we disparage women who may choose a 'traditional' role for themselves? Are we still trying to pigeon-hole women into behaving a way we(as a society) think they should?

I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar. I'm not a man(at least not this time around), so I'm unsure if there's any equivalent.
As someone who is nonbinary I dont really fit into gender roles...I do get to see since some people mistaken me as male and others mistaken me for female how different men and women are treated based on gender...One thing that I find interesting is when you're nonbinary people try to trap you in some kind of Catch-22 when it comes to clothes...I like to dress androgynous in a way that is stereotypically nonbinary while occasionally dressing femme or masc. When I dress like a stereotypically nonbinary person might I am told I am uncreative and if I want to be taken seriously in my identity I should dress femme or masc. If I dress femme or masc tho I am told what is the point in being nonbinary if you dont even try to pass? As a result I dress in the way that makes me comfortable.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I was a stay at home mom, and I find no motivation to re-name it with a more impressive title, until our youngest child entered Jr High. I left work when our first child was born. Not one moment of regret. I returned to work with college tuitions in mind.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
While we fight for a woman's right to secure any job she desires, and for equal pay (as I believe we should), why is it we disparage women who may choose a 'traditional' role for themselves? Are we still trying to pigeon-hole women into behaving a way we(as a society) think they should?

I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar. I'm not a man(at least not this time around), so I'm unsure if there's any equivalent.
We live in a culture that defines all value in terms of monetary commodification. If something is profitable (makes money), it has value. If it dies not, it's considered value-superfluous. So, 'housewives' are culturally value-superfluous.

And it's not just housewives. I have been an artist all my life. And making art is another of those "value-superfluous" career choices. Sure, one can make pop songs and sell them for money, or tell jokes on stage and get people to pay, or occasionally even paint a painting and maybe sell it for money. But ultimately, it's not the art that is selling, it's the comedy, or the titillation, or the entertainment that the art happens to be wrapped in. And since most art is not wrapped in one of these commodity guises, most artworks are considered valueless. And therefor those who create them are considered value-superfluous in this culture.

The new global religion is the worship of money; specifically of monetary profitability. ALL value is now being determined based on this ideal. And sorry, honey, but what you do all day isn't economically profitable (except as a consumer, of course). So you're efforts are culturally superfluous (except as a consumer, of course ... we're ALL valuable as consumers).
 
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JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
I suppose it is possible that what the teacher meant was, not that you have nothing to do, but that you had no schedule of fixed appointments, i.e. you were able ("free") to agree any time of day for your meeting with the teacher.

What was it you said to the teacher that led to this response?

With this particular teacher, the comment wasn't an isolated incident, and in the course that my son's been assigned to her(she's a special ed roster teacher who oversees virtual), she has done several things to suggest that my time was unimportant, and to insist that I'm free for her(even though I'm not). Another son has therapy or other lessons most days, and due to the nature of one child, and the age of another, I need to arrange for another adult to be available when I do zoom meetings in any meaningful way, otherwise the person is stuck looking at an empty chair, while I attend to the drama. (The 7 year old is 'spirited', and there is also a toddler who well, does toddler type things.)

I've actually had this individual switch our agreed upon meeting times without telling me, and then when the 'new' meeting time rolls around, she calls and asks me where I am. The first time, I thought "what a big dummy I am, to get the time wrong like that!" The next time I got suspicious, and checked our emails, and found I wasn't mistaken. She'd pulled a fast one on me, knowing I'd be home, and in her mind 'available'. Lets just forget the parent wasn't able to fully engage in the child's meeting...(had to get up, down, check this, be right back! hold on, Ares, stop throwing! Hey, can someone get the baby off the desk?...now what was that about son's IEP program?) Been a lot of passive aggressive issues with this person in general.

Though really, I chose the line because I thought it would be a good opener for the topic. ;)
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
With this particular teacher, the comment wasn't an isolated incident, and in the course that my son's been assigned to her(she's a special ed roster teacher who oversees virtual), she has done several things to suggest that my time was unimportant, and to insist that I'm free for her(even though I'm not). Another son has therapy or other lessons most days, and due to the nature of one child, and the age of another, I need to arrange for another adult to be available when I do zoom meetings in any meaningful way, otherwise the person is stuck looking at an empty chair, while I attend to the drama. (The 7 year old is 'spirited', and there is also a toddler who well, does toddler type things.)

I've actually had this individual switch our agreed upon meeting times without telling me, and then when the 'new' meeting time rolls around, she calls and asks me where I am. The first time, I thought "what a big dummy I am, to get the time wrong like that!" The next time I got suspicious, and checked our emails, and found I wasn't mistaken. She'd pulled a fast one on me, knowing I'd be home, and in her mind 'available'. Lets just forget the parent wasn't able to fully engage in the child's meeting...(had to get up, down, check this, be right back! hold on, Ares, stop throwing! Hey, can someone get the baby off the desk?...now what was that about son's IEP program?) Been a lot of passive aggressive issues with this person in general.

Though really, I chose the line because I thought it would be a good opener for the topic. ;)
That's pretty bad then, seeing as this teacher must know your particularly difficult circumstances. I think I would be tempted have a word with the school head about it, explaining how hard it is for you to engineer a slot in which you won't be disturbed by the goings-on at home.

But I suspect this may be sheer thoughtlessness rather than sexism.
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
That's pretty bad then, seeing as this teacher must know your particularly difficult circumstances. I think I would be tempted have a word with the school head about it, explaining how hard it is for you to engineer a slot in which you won't be disturbed by the goings-on at home.

But I suspect this may be sheer thoughtlessness rather than sexism.

I've considered calling someone above her, should this escalate any worse than it already has.

It's certainly possible I've misinterpreted something. The woman could simply have trouble with respecting others in general. (Scary to think she's influencing students.)

I think the rudest comment I ever got regarding my choice of occupation was from a Reverend at a Unitarian Universalist church. I told her I was a homemaker, and she rolled her eyes at me and said "yeah, my ex husband never wanted to get a job either".
 

Wrangler

Ask And You Will Receive
While we fight for a woman's right to secure any job she desires, and for equal pay(as I believe we should), why is it we disparage women who may choose a 'traditional' role for themselves?

In my experience, those who are hostile to women who choose traditional roles are other women. They don't want women to make that choice.

I believe feminism is the worst -ism of the 20th century, proving worse than communism and fascism in terms of number of deaths.

I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar.

Lots. Before I delve into that I want to challenge the idea of women receiving equal pay. The original phrase was Equal Pay for Equal Work. Half a century later, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR feminists want equal pay for unequal pay. Tennis is a great example. Productive v unproductive work is another, e.g., men in mines compared to Gender Studies teachers.

Beyond that is the fallacy that women who have the same title do the same work. In my career, I have found when the heat is on, women tend to melt. This is supported by many studies that show women react much more to negative emotions. Anyone with life experience knows this is true - even if they won't admit it.

Now, on to the experiences of Sexism and Traditional Roles. Let me give you 2 involving my daughter and stepdaughters. After I got out of college I got a job in Texas. My wife's ex had agreed in her divorce to pay to bring the children back to him and that included buying 5 round trip plane tickets 3 times each year. 3 young kids could not travel by themselves and an adult had to accompany them coming and going.

One time I went with them. When the stewardess noticed me sitting next to these young girls, she told me it is against air line policy for a man to sit next to young children without their parents. I was relocated to a seat away from my stepdaughters.

Years later when my daughter came along, we lived in Michigan and I was traveling through Canada enroute to Massachusetts. Returning to the States, the female border guard asked me if I had a note from the girl's mother (who is my daughter). I said no and asked if that was the law. She said no but put pressure on me to do that to make her job easier. This conversation ran several laps as she lectured me about her concerns about how I might be kidnapping my own daughter.

Then when my wife and I go on cruises we have to attend mandatory safety training where I am told women get preferential seating on life boats - even though there are supposedly enough life boats for everyone on board. Don't you get that warm fuzzy feeling learning that someone life is more valuable than your simply because they are of the opposite sex?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
In my experience, those who are hostile to women who choose traditional roles are other women. They don't want women to make that choice.

I believe feminism is the worst -ism of the 20th century, proving worse than communism and fascism in terms of number of deaths.



Lots. Before I delve into that I want to challenge the idea of women receiving equal pay. The original phrase was Equal Pay for Equal Work. Half a century later, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR feminists want equal pay for unequal pay. Tennis is a great example. Productive v unproductive work is another, e.g., men in mines compared to Gender Studies teachers.

Beyond that is the fallacy that women who have the same title do the same work. In my career, I have found when the heat is on, women tend to melt. This is supported by many studies that show women react much more to negative emotions. Anyone with life experience knows this is true - even if they won't admit it.

Now, on to the experiences of Sexism and Traditional Roles. Let me give you 2 involving my daughter and stepdaughters. After I got out of college I got a job in Texas. My wife's ex had agreed in her divorce to pay to bring the children back to him and that included buying 5 round trip plane tickets 3 times each year. 3 young kids could not travel by themselves and an adult had to accompany them coming and going.

One time I went with them. When the stewardess noticed me sitting next to these young girls, she told me it is against air line policy for a man to sit next to young children without their parents. I was relocated to a seat away from my stepdaughters.

Years later when my daughter came along, we lived in Michigan and I was traveling through Canada enroute to Massachusetts. Returning to the States, the female border guard asked me if I had a note from the girl's mother (who is my daughter). I said no and asked if that was the law. She said no but put pressure on me to do that to make her job easier. This conversation ran several laps as she lectured me about her concerns about how I might be kidnapping my own daughter.

Then when my wife and I go on cruises we have to attend mandatory safety training where I am told women get preferential seating on life boats - even though there are supposedly enough life boats for everyone on board. Don't you get that warm fuzzy feeling learning that someone life is more valuable than your simply because they are of the opposite sex?
Berk.
 
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