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Sexism and Traditional Roles

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
"So, you're pretty much free like, all the time, right?"

Words from a teacher to me this week, regarding setting up a meeting regarding a school issue.

"Sure, I'll pencil you in sometime after I make lunch, do a math lesson with another child, and clean the cat puke off the couch, and before I catch the bigger one as he attempt to run down the street, start supper, and pick up the toys for the 15th time today."

Well, that was what I wanted to say. What I said was actually closer to a polite correction that I did indeed have things to do, and that while I was willing to be flexible, my time isn't just a free-for-all.

I am a homemaker(preferred term domestic engineer). I have been in this line of work a year or two short of a decade, and in this time, have found that I've encountered sexism(if this is the proper term in this context) from time to time.

There are the offhanded remarks about having an easy life doing nothing, insinuations that I'm lazy and don't want to 'work', admonishments that I should want 'more' for myself(please, I have enough), or comments that I'm wasting my life. The comments can come from anywhere, but I find they most frequently come from other women, generally under 60.

While we fight for a woman's right to secure any job she desires, and for equal pay(as I believe we should), why is it we disparage women who may choose a 'traditional' role for themselves? Are we still trying to pigeon-hole women into behaving a way we(as a society) think they should?

I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar. I'm not a man(at least not this time around), so I'm unsure if there's any equivalent.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I think your experience belies just how little society thinks of homemakers.
Even feminists sometimes do this. Though that maybe something that needs some armchair psychology to figure out lol. Like left over resentment from an era when that was enforced. Or a sense of like “oh we fought for the right to leave home and that’s what you’re doing with your life.” Which imo is wrong but I can understand that that might be due to cultural factors.
I think it is wrong to dismiss a home- Er excuse me a Domestic Engineer as someone lacking ambition or without goals. Sometimes a woman prefers that and there’s nothing wrong with a woman of her own violation and free will choosing that for herself. If it is forced upon her then and only then is it wrong, imo.
Same goes for men choosing to stay at home. I think it shows great strength of character to choose that option. Though I understand that in today’s economy it is probably more practical for both to work at least part time. Which is an unfortunate consequence living in such a system.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
My mom told me the most important work she ever did in her life was raise my brothers and me.

On the side, she took over a failing corporation, turned it around, then ran it in the black for another 30 years. People came up to me at her funeral to tell me how she had made their lives better because of how she ran that business. Even before then, people had told me of dropping by her office when they had some personal problem they needed a sounding board to help them sort it out. She was engaged in ways like that with a lot of people in her community.

But to her, it was raising us kids.

When I hear someone -- anyone -- put down 'domestic engineers' I usually recall that mom would have preferred that was her full time job.
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
Though I understand that in today’s economy it is probably more practical for both to work at least part time. Which is an unfortunate consequence living in such a system.

Can you believe that it would have cost almost the same amount to put my son(I only had one at the time I made the 'switch')in daycare as I brought in each month? :confused: Granted, I didn't work much more than part time, but still.... The prices my sister pays for child care is unreal.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
"I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar. I'm not a man(at least not this time around), so I'm unsure if there's any equivalent.

I know of at least one job that I was never seriously considered for because of my sex. The reason I know that is because the person I applied to for the job was a friend of my mothers. He was kind enough to pass along through her the decisive reason he felt I would be a bad choice was my sex. It wasn't the most attractive job, just the only one available that summer. Tutoring children in art. He thought -- and he was almost certainly right -- that just about any woman could relate to children their ages much better than me.

Apart from that, I've never had any reason to conclude that my sex had anything to do with being turned down for any job. Once or twice, it might have been a factor. Might have. No more than that.

In contrast, I'd be senile to not remember the times I had an edge because I was male. I'm sure White has also played well to my advantage. But so far as I can see, it's been hands down the fact I'm well educated and have passable manners. For some reason, the less well mannered you are, the more you need education that is immediately useful to a company.

Anyone looking for a job soon? This has paid off well for me. Bypass the personal department in any way possible, along with anyone else, until you are interviewing with the boss you'll have if you get hired. Do it even if it's likely to temporarily anger the people you bypassed. Why? He or she will almost always try to figure out how well you'll get along with their existing crew. If you can make that cut, you're way out ahead of anyone who can't.

Any good salesman knows, their personality and charm is the deciding factor in the vast majority of their sales. It's a huge handicap to have a crappy product. It's near certain death to project yourself as a crappy person. To beat that reality, you must have something an employer needs and must hire YOU to get.

Women friends have told me they work hard to make themselves vital -- harder than they see men doing it. I believe them. I've seen how hard some women work to make themselves the person in the room everyone turns to for the real solution, after politely asking the higher status folks their opinions.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
"So, you're pretty much free like, all the time, right?"

Words from a teacher to me this week, regarding setting up a meeting regarding a school issue.

"Sure, I'll pencil you in sometime after I make lunch, do a math lesson with another child, and clean the cat puke off the couch, and before I catch the bigger one as he attempt to run down the street, start supper, and pick up the toys for the 15th time today."

Well, that was what I wanted to say. What I said was actually closer to a polite correction that I did indeed have things to do, and that while I was willing to be flexible, my time isn't just a free-for-all.

I am a homemaker(preferred term domestic engineer). I have been in this line of work a year or two short of a decade, and in this time, have found that I've encountered sexism(if this is the proper term in this context) from time to time.

There are the offhanded remarks about having an easy life doing nothing, insinuations that I'm lazy and don't want to 'work', admonishments that I should want 'more' for myself(please, I have enough), or comments that I'm wasting my life. The comments can come from anywhere, but I find they most frequently come from other women, generally under 60.

While we fight for a woman's right to secure any job she desires, and for equal pay(as I believe we should), why is it we disparage women who may choose a 'traditional' role for themselves? Are we still trying to pigeon-hole women into behaving a way we(as a society) think they should?

I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar. I'm not a man(at least not this time around), so I'm unsure if there's any equivalent.
While working for a temp service in Ohio I was turned down for numerous office jobs even though I completely aced every test for office work except typing, which I barely scored above average.

I finally did get an office job, but it was one where the position was not mainly for eye candy.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Can you believe that it would have cost almost the same amount to put my son(I only had one at the time I made the 'switch')in daycare as I brought in each month? :confused: Granted, I didn't work much more than part time, but still.... The prices my sister pays for child care is unreal.
Oh I can believe it. It’s almost a scam. The only people I know who use daycare are like people who make pretty decent salaries.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
"So, you're pretty much free like, all the time, right?"

Words from a teacher to me this week, regarding setting up a meeting regarding a school issue.

"Sure, I'll pencil you in sometime after I make lunch, do a math lesson with another child, and clean the cat puke off the couch, and before I catch the bigger one as he attempt to run down the street, start supper, and pick up the toys for the 15th time today."

Well, that was what I wanted to say. What I said was actually closer to a polite correction that I did indeed have things to do, and that while I was willing to be flexible, my time isn't just a free-for-all.

I am a homemaker(preferred term domestic engineer). I have been in this line of work a year or two short of a decade, and in this time, have found that I've encountered sexism(if this is the proper term in this context) from time to time.

There are the offhanded remarks about having an easy life doing nothing, insinuations that I'm lazy and don't want to 'work', admonishments that I should want 'more' for myself(please, I have enough), or comments that I'm wasting my life. The comments can come from anywhere, but I find they most frequently come from other women, generally under 60.

While we fight for a woman's right to secure any job she desires, and for equal pay(as I believe we should), why is it we disparage women who may choose a 'traditional' role for themselves? Are we still trying to pigeon-hole women into behaving a way we(as a society) think they should?

I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar. I'm not a man(at least not this time around), so I'm unsure if there's any equivalent.

My partner's sister-in-law is a stay at home mom to two boys, ages 4 and 2. She works harder every day than most people I know. And she's a killer cook who has given me tons of recipes and tips, and every time I go over to their house her tidiness puts me to shame.

**** anyone who looks down on such amazing human beings.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I know of at least one job that I was never seriously considered for because of my sex. The reason I know that is because the person I applied to for the job was a friend of my mothers. He was kind enough to pass along through her the decisive reason he felt I would be a bad choice was my sex. It wasn't the most attractive job, just the only one available that summer. Tutoring children in art. He thought -- and he was almost certainly right -- that just about any woman could relate to children their ages much better than me.

Apart from that, I've never had any reason to conclude that my sex had anything to do with being turned down for any job. Once or twice, it might have been a factor. Might have. No more than that.
Hmm interesting. I’ve always had a mixture of teachers myself. In the younger years I suppose it did skew female but not by much.
I remember my year 1 teacher was Mr Murphy. All the kids absolutely adored him and would even follow him around whenever he had playground duty.
Odd since a lot of children’s media that skews young actually seems to have more male presenters than females. You’d think the perception of the public would be skewed towards males being ideal teachers. Guess not :shrug:
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
He thought -- and he was almost certainly right -- that just about any woman could relate to children their ages much better than me.

You know, one of the best preschool staff my son had was not only a man, he was a biker... I remember warning the staff when he started that "my son loves men. And when he loves you, he throws stuff at your head." I got a bit of disbelief from them, and then a note two weeks later... "Ares seems to have taken to Mr. Paul. He has begun throwing items at his head."

Honestly, the only two groups of people I would entrust to be tough enough to care for that child in particular would be bikers or nuns. (A friend suggested biker nuns, but there seems to be a shortage of those.) A organization we were a part of once tried to pay for a sitter for the weekend so we could participate in an event they had. The sitter quit 4 hours in.

Oh I can believe it. It’s almost a scam. The only people I know who use daycare are like people who make pretty decent salaries.

Its pretty hard to avoid it here, unless you're fortunate enough to have friends or family willing to help.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
"So, you're pretty much free like, all the time, right?"

Words from a teacher to me this week, regarding setting up a meeting regarding a school issue.

"Sure, I'll pencil you in sometime after I make lunch, do a math lesson with another child, and clean the cat puke off the couch, and before I catch the bigger one as he attempt to run down the street, start supper, and pick up the toys for the 15th time today."

Well, that was what I wanted to say. What I said was actually closer to a polite correction that I did indeed have things to do, and that while I was willing to be flexible, my time isn't just a free-for-all.

I am a homemaker(preferred term domestic engineer). I have been in this line of work a year or two short of a decade, and in this time, have found that I've encountered sexism(if this is the proper term in this context) from time to time.

There are the offhanded remarks about having an easy life doing nothing, insinuations that I'm lazy and don't want to 'work', admonishments that I should want 'more' for myself(please, I have enough), or comments that I'm wasting my life. The comments can come from anywhere, but I find they most frequently come from other women, generally under 60.

While we fight for a woman's right to secure any job she desires, and for equal pay(as I believe we should), why is it we disparage women who may choose a 'traditional' role for themselves? Are we still trying to pigeon-hole women into behaving a way we(as a society) think they should?

I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar. I'm not a man(at least not this time around), so I'm unsure if there's any equivalent.

My wife and I have two teenage sons. The option for us after the birth of our second child was for her to be a full time domestic services manager and for me to work full time. We are both educated and capable people but there has often been a sense of pressure, usually from other women that she’s not really been fulfilling her potential in this role. Now her father’s health is failing she has stepped up to support her mother care for him.

Couples need to make the best decisions under the circumstances but raising children and caring for the sick and elderly is seen by me as one of the most meritorious jobs on the planet regardless of whether its done by a man or woman. Often it isn’t seen in that light and corporate careers are more highly valued.
 

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
"So, you're pretty much free like, all the time, right?"

Words from a teacher to me this week, regarding setting up a meeting regarding a school issue.

"Sure, I'll pencil you in sometime after I make lunch, do a math lesson with another child, and clean the cat puke off the couch, and before I catch the bigger one as he attempt to run down the street, start supper, and pick up the toys for the 15th time today."

Well, that was what I wanted to say. What I said was actually closer to a polite correction that I did indeed have things to do, and that while I was willing to be flexible, my time isn't just a free-for-all.

I am a homemaker(preferred term domestic engineer). I have been in this line of work a year or two short of a decade, and in this time, have found that I've encountered sexism(if this is the proper term in this context) from time to time.

There are the offhanded remarks about having an easy life doing nothing, insinuations that I'm lazy and don't want to 'work', admonishments that I should want 'more' for myself(please, I have enough), or comments that I'm wasting my life. The comments can come from anywhere, but I find they most frequently come from other women, generally under 60.

While we fight for a woman's right to secure any job she desires, and for equal pay(as I believe we should), why is it we disparage women who may choose a 'traditional' role for themselves? Are we still trying to pigeon-hole women into behaving a way we(as a society) think they should?

I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar. I'm not a man(at least not this time around), so I'm unsure if there's any equivalent.

I'm a house husband and plan on staying that way way for the foreseeable future. I take care of 5 animals 4 cats and a dog, plus all of the other household chores, cooking, cleaning, laundry, repairs. It's a full time job 8+hours a day, 7 days a week. You work harder then some people in a "normal" job (what is normal anyways). I can only imagine also adding a child or two into the mix which we plan on doing at some point. Good on you I say. Your post reminded me of this article I read a while back.

This guy says he ’can’t afford’ his wife — and the reason why is truly touching
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm a house husband and plan on staying that way way for the foreseeable future. I take care of 5 animals 4 cats and a dog, plus all of the other household chores, cooking, cleaning, laundry, repairs. It's a full time job 8+hours a day, 7 days a week. You work harder then some people in a "normal" job (what is normal anyways). I can only imagine also adding a child or two into the mix which we plan on doing at some point. Good on you I say. Your post reminded me of this article I read a while back.

This guy says he ’can’t afford’ his wife — and the reason why is truly touching

I admit, it was hard the first few years to buy anything for myself. I didn't feel like I was entitled to the household money... it was 'his'. He never did anything to make me feel like that, it was just something that was engrained in my head.

Though there was one exception... I used to do all the driving, too. He did not drive for most of our marriage. He just didn't care to get a license, and I didn't really mind driving him around. The trouble came, however, when he would call me to pick him up from work, and then not actually be off for some time. I'm not talking 5 minutes, I'm talking 45 minutes +. I politely asked him to not call until he was actually off. The behavior continued. I not-so-politely asked him to stop. It continued. And then I started charging a quarter a minute to sit in the parking lot.

The behavior continued. But I have one awesome Barbie collection to show for it. One of his coworkers commented that it "is really messed up that you pay her bills, and she charges you to wait in the parking lot" He shot back "no its not! I make her sit out there a really long time sometimes!" In a way, I think he enjoyed it, as it was one of the few times I'd accept any 'luxury buys' from him.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Those who don't appreciate home makers are the same sorts of people who don't appreciate, I don't know, things like roads? Running water? Reliable electricity? The stuff that is the very foundation and bedrock of civilization without which humans basically wouldn't be able to function? What the genitals are of the humans doing these roles is frankly irrelevant - what matters is that this stuff is there. Anything that is central to human communities and the infrastructure that supports those communities is all too often taken for granted. Back in the day, household gods were commonly worshiped by the people and with good reason. That's one Pagan practice we could do with some transposing into the modern era, even if it's stripped of its overly polytheist elements. Honor thy places and spaces.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
@JustGeorge, I've been thinking about telling you this. It's likely to come across wrong to at least some people who read it. But maybe it will help someone, too.

There were a group of six people in my town who made happen almost everything that happened worth noticing. Mom was the only woman. Year in and year out, the group met for lunch every working day, and any stranger to the town would have overlooked them as just a group of socializing friends. But it was at those lunch meetings that the decisions were made.

As the only woman, mom had the privilege of speaking last or near last whenever anything was being decided. I say 'privilege' because like so many people for thousands of years have known, that's where you want to be in the speaking order if your group is small enough, and you know how to exploit the opportunity.

Mom, more often than not, was the final decision-maker in that town, helped along by her knowing how to use her lower status as a female to her own advantage,.

Her most reliable technique was her skill at convincing the man of her choosing that it was he, and not her, who had thunk up the idea in the form it was being decided upon. She was smooth at that. Of course, that made the man commit himself to pushing hard to push through the idea for the glory it would bring him, as well as to avoid the pains and horrors of death to his ego.

She picked her man well in advance, with an eye to the best fit of man and project.

She had only one friend of either sex who she dared talk openly with about her shenanigans. That was her buddy Sam, an attorney and former judge. Sam, by the way, was quite conservative in his beliefs about women. But like most conservatives, he was quite flexible in how he viewed individual women. I got the sense he felt some measure of admiration for her. He certainly respected her.

When I was a freshman, I mentioned some of this to a poly sci professor after he asked some things about a paper I'd handed in. That's how I ended up encouraged to study Machiavelli in order to better understand my own mother!

Actually, I think Sun-tzu is equally explanatory, perhaps a little better.

Some time ago, I was 'old enough' to look back on her and be grateful she never made any real effort to manipulate my brothers and me. I sure gave her enough 'marching to my own drummer' that she must have been tempted at times.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Though I understand that in today’s economy it is probably more practical for both to work at least part time. Which is an unfortunate consequence living in such a system.

Today's economy is the result of policy decisions by the Government, Federal Reserve, and other involved parties that began to be made in the early 1970s. The economy immediately preceding it was just as engineered. Most likely that will never change now. As you might know, the current economy began in America, then was exported everywhere it could be exported.

It's kind of ironic that just as women began entering the workforce in huge numbers, it started becoming increasingly difficult to support a family on a single income. I don't know if that was actually engineered to happen, or was just an unintentional consequence of what was engineered to happen.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
"So, you're pretty much free like, all the time, right?"

Words from a teacher to me this week, regarding setting up a meeting regarding a school issue.

"Sure, I'll pencil you in sometime after I make lunch, do a math lesson with another child, and clean the cat puke off the couch, and before I catch the bigger one as he attempt to run down the street, start supper, and pick up the toys for the 15th time today."

Well, that was what I wanted to say. What I said was actually closer to a polite correction that I did indeed have things to do, and that while I was willing to be flexible, my time isn't just a free-for-all.

I am a homemaker(preferred term domestic engineer). I have been in this line of work a year or two short of a decade, and in this time, have found that I've encountered sexism(if this is the proper term in this context) from time to time.

There are the offhanded remarks about having an easy life doing nothing, insinuations that I'm lazy and don't want to 'work', admonishments that I should want 'more' for myself(please, I have enough), or comments that I'm wasting my life. The comments can come from anywhere, but I find they most frequently come from other women, generally under 60.

While we fight for a woman's right to secure any job she desires, and for equal pay(as I believe we should), why is it we disparage women who may choose a 'traditional' role for themselves? Are we still trying to pigeon-hole women into behaving a way we(as a society) think they should?

I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar. I'm not a man(at least not this time around), so I'm unsure if there's any equivalent.


I've done both, worked hard, often 16 to 18 hours per day, 8 days a week. And been a "housewife" (another put down name) and mother for 24 hours per day 10 days per week.

I think the second is harder, with more constants on time, more stress and thankless but ultimately more rewarding. Stuff what other's think, be happy and proud that you are doing essential work that you choose to do
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
"So, you're pretty much free like, all the time, right?"

Words from a teacher to me this week, regarding setting up a meeting regarding a school issue.

"Sure, I'll pencil you in sometime after I make lunch, do a math lesson with another child, and clean the cat puke off the couch, and before I catch the bigger one as he attempt to run down the street, start supper, and pick up the toys for the 15th time today."

Well, that was what I wanted to say. What I said was actually closer to a polite correction that I did indeed have things to do, and that while I was willing to be flexible, my time isn't just a free-for-all.

I am a homemaker(preferred term domestic engineer). I have been in this line of work a year or two short of a decade, and in this time, have found that I've encountered sexism(if this is the proper term in this context) from time to time.

There are the offhanded remarks about having an easy life doing nothing, insinuations that I'm lazy and don't want to 'work', admonishments that I should want 'more' for myself(please, I have enough), or comments that I'm wasting my life. The comments can come from anywhere, but I find they most frequently come from other women, generally under 60.

While we fight for a woman's right to secure any job she desires, and for equal pay(as I believe we should), why is it we disparage women who may choose a 'traditional' role for themselves? Are we still trying to pigeon-hole women into behaving a way we(as a society) think they should?

I'm also curious to hear if men experience anything similar. I'm not a man(at least not this time around), so I'm unsure if there's any equivalent.
I suppose it is possible that what the teacher meant was, not that you have nothing to do, but that you had no schedule of fixed appointments, i.e. you were able ("free") to agree any time of day for your meeting with the teacher.

What was it you said to the teacher that led to this response?
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
In my experience, often things people say that appear to be condescending are borne of envy or jealousy. Consider those mothers that have no choice but to work and leave their child with another. I'm confident many of those would prefer to stay at home and raise their children, but that's not an option because the father doesn't make enough money to support the family or the father is just plain absent. They see another that does have the option to stay at home and raise her children on her own terms and find something to say to make themselves feel better about their own choices.

One of the Four Agreements is, "Don't take anything personally."

Whatever happens around you, don’t take it personally. Nothing other people do is because of you. It is because of themselves. All people live in their own dream, in their own mind; they are in a completely different world from the one we live in. When we take something personally, we make the assumption that they know what is in our world, and we try to impose our world on their world.” – Don Miguel Ruiz
 
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