Sex Work Marches Towards Legality

[Saint Frankenstein]

I laid sod one summer during my college years. Not because I wanted to, not because I liked it, but because of the money. You need to show that prostitution is different. It is the same sort of consent.

You weren't having to let strangers penetrate your body.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You weren't having to let strangers penetrate your body.

So what? Sex workers are not using their arms until they feel like they will fall off or working their hands until they are bleeding. Sex can be enjoyable. I don't think anyone enjoys laying sod.

Like many jobs there really is not that big of a difference in the sex trades than other ones.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's commodifying it and turning it into a product to be sold, that is the problem. It's dehumanizing. Many or most sex workers are in circumstances where you can't really claim it's consensual. They don't want to be there and it's common for them to dissociate to get through it. They're just reduced to their bodies and used.

You say it's dehumanizing, but that's your personal value
judgment. Many would disagree. Why should we use
the heavy hand of government to prosecute people to
enforce your spiritual values?

What circumstances would make it involuntary without also
making other manual labor also involuntary?

And finally, illegality has its costs too....paying taxes to pay
cops to persecute workers & customers, paying the court
system to convict them, paying jailers to imprison them,
& paying doctors to cure diseases, & lives ruined by a
criminal record for a victimless crime.
Do you think that's a good thing?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That's my point. You allowed yourself to be used and exploited for the money. NOT because you wanted to, or because you liked it, which is the idiotic delusional fantasy that all these pro-prostitution folks think is reality. Because they think money somehow erases the horrible reality of exploitation and abuse that it causes and enables.

Well, what might you have suggested? I had nobody in the world to help me -- remember, no family, no nothing.And while there might have been agencies I could turn to, do you think that with nobody to talk to and no real knowledge of the world I knew where to find them? Would starving or freezing to death really have been the better option?

 

[InChrist]

This is good news IMO.
Manhattan to Stop Prosecuting Prostitution, Part of Nationwide Shift
Excerpted....
The Manhattan district attorney’s office announced Wednesday that it would no longer prosecute prostitution and unlicensed massage, putting the weight of one of the most high-profile law enforcement offices in the United States behind the growing movement to change the criminal justice system’s approach to sex work.

The district attorney, Cyrus R. Vance Jr., revealed the new policy as he appeared virtually in court to ask a judge to dismiss 914 open cases involving prostitution and unlicensed massage, along with 5,080 cases in which the charge was loitering for the purposes of prostitution.

The law that made the latter charge a crime, which had become known as the “walking while trans” law, was repealed by New York State in February.

Mr. Vance said that with the announcement, his office had fully shifted its approach to prostitution. Many of the cases he moved to dismiss dated to the 1970s and 1980s, when New York waged a war against prostitution in an effort to clean up its image as a center of iniquity and vice.

“Over the last decade we’ve learned from those with lived experience, and from our own experience on the ground: Criminally prosecuting prostitution does not make us safer, and too often, achieves the opposite result by further marginalizing vulnerable New Yorkers,” Mr. Vance said in a statement.

The office will continue to prosecute other crimes related to prostitution, including patronizing sex workers and sex trafficking.

Manhattan will join Baltimore, Philadelphia and other jurisdictions that have declined to prosecute sex workers. Brooklyn also does not prosecute people arrested for prostitution, but instead refers them to social services before they are compelled to appear in court — unless the district attorney’s office there is unable to reach them.

I am certainly in agreement with referring sex workers, especially those who are caught in prostitution due to trafficking, to social services rather than prosecuting them. Nevertheless, I have read several studies and heard accounts of those who have escaped sex trafficking, that legalized prostitution is not the answer and in fact makes matters worse for the victims of sex trafficking.



The study’s findings include:

• Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.
• The effect of legal prostitution on human trafficking inflows is stronger in high-income countries than middle-income countries. Because trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation requires that clients in a potential destination country have sufficient purchasing power, domestic supply acts as a constraint.
• Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization.
• The type of legalization of prostitution does not matter — it only matters whether prostitution is legal or not. Whether third-party involvement (persons who facilitate the prostitution businesses, i.e, “pimps”) is allowed or not does not have an effect on human trafficking inflows into a country. Legalization of prostitution itself is more important in explaining human trafficking than the type of legalization.
• Democracies have a higher probability of increased human-trafficking inflows than non-democratic countries. There is a 13.4% higher probability of receiving higher inflows in a democratic country than otherwise.

Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?



The Dutch experiment to end abuse by legalizing prostitution failed. Amsterdam Mayor Job Cohen said: “Almost five years after the lifting of the brothel ban, we have to acknowledge that the aims of the law have not been reached. Lately we've received more and more signals that abuse still continues.” According to the Amsterdam police: “We are in the midst of modern slavery.”

Wherever prostitution is legalized, sex trafficking in the region increases, according to the International Organization for Migration. In the Netherlands, the sex industry increased by 25 percent after legalization. In Victoria, Australia, the number of legal brothels doubled, while illegal brothels increased by 300 percent. A 200-400 percent increase in street prostitution has been reported in Auckland, New Zealand since prostitution was decriminalized. After prostitution was legalized in Germany, the numbers of trafficked women increased dramatically.

Prostitution and Sex Trafficking: Inescapably Linked - Fair Observer

 

[Revoltingest]

I am certainly in agreement with referring sex workers, especially those who are caught in prostitution due to trafficking, to social services rather than prosecuting them. Nevertheless, I have read several studies and heard accounts of those who have escaped sex trafficking, that legalized prostitution is not the answer and in fact makes matters worse for the victims of sex trafficking.



The study’s findings include:

• Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.
• The effect of legal prostitution on human trafficking inflows is stronger in high-income countries than middle-income countries. Because trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation requires that clients in a potential destination country have sufficient purchasing power, domestic supply acts as a constraint.
• Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization.
• The type of legalization of prostitution does not matter — it only matters whether prostitution is legal or not. Whether third-party involvement (persons who facilitate the prostitution businesses, i.e, “pimps”) is allowed or not does not have an effect on human trafficking inflows into a country. Legalization of prostitution itself is more important in explaining human trafficking than the type of legalization.
• Democracies have a higher probability of increased human-trafficking inflows than non-democratic countries. There is a 13.4% higher probability of receiving higher inflows in a democratic country than otherwise.

Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?



The Dutch experiment to end abuse by legalizing prostitution failed. Amsterdam Mayor Job Cohen said: “Almost five years after the lifting of the brothel ban, we have to acknowledge that the aims of the law have not been reached. Lately we've received more and more signals that abuse still continues.” According to the Amsterdam police: “We are in the midst of modern slavery.”

Wherever prostitution is legalized, sex trafficking in the region increases, according to the International Organization for Migration. In the Netherlands, the sex industry increased by 25 percent after legalization. In Victoria, Australia, the number of legal brothels doubled, while illegal brothels increased by 300 percent. A 200-400 percent increase in street prostitution has been reported in Auckland, New Zealand since prostitution was decriminalized. After prostitution was legalized in Germany, the numbers of trafficked women increased dramatically.

Prostitution and Sex Trafficking: Inescapably Linked - Fair Observer

Those costs, if they applied here, would have to be
evaluated against the other side of the coin, ie, the
status quo of the justice industrial complex prosecuting
workers & customers. The War On Drugs is similary.
My approach (libertarian) is to enable greater liberty,
& deal with those problems. Better than putting many
people in prison in a failed attempt to eliminate acts
that occur anyway.

 

[Altfish]

It's commodifying it and turning it into a product to be sold, that is the problem. It's dehumanizing. Many or most sex workers are in circumstances where you can't really claim it's consensual. They don't want to be there and it's common for them to dissociate to get through it. They're just reduced to their bodies and used.

But if it is licensed and controlled it would remove most of the non consensual.

 

[SomeRandom]

Some things should not be "a business". Sadly, few Americans are capable of understanding this, anymore. We have turned EVERY aspect of humanity into a commodity to be bought and sold (exploited) for profit. It's hard to see what's wrong with prostitution when everyone is already a whore.

Welcome to capitalism.

It is the world’s oldest profession, to be fair. And really is it that different to the porn industry?
I happen to agree with our local sex worker’s union’s aims, personally. (Yes in Aus we have a Union for sex workers.)
Education, destigmatisation, political, economic and social justice for sex workers. Scientifically based advocacy regarding harm reduction, including but not limited to HIV reduction, condom use and opportunities to help people escape prostitution.
Scarlet Alliance - Wikipedia
I think my state allows for licensed brothels and private sex work.
As usual though I suspect our neighbours from NZ do a better job than us regarding the issue.

 

[InChrist]

Those costs, if they applied here, would have to be
evaluated against the other side of the coin, ie, the
status quo of the justice industrial complex prosecuting
workers & customers. The War On Drugs is similary.
My approach (libertarian) is to enable greater liberty,
& deal with those problems. Better than putting many
people in prison in a failed attempt to eliminate acts
that occur anyway.

I definitely lean libertarian and favor greater liberty.
It seems though that traditionally the burden of prison or fines has fallen on the prostitutes who are victims of their circumstances, pimps, traffickers and even customers who demand an use them as a commodity .
I think it goes without saying that traffickers and pimps should be prosecuted. I would prefer to see ...


“Enforcing laws criminalizing buyers and changing social norms around the harms associated with the illegal sex industry is the fastest and most just response to the problems of prostitution and sex trafficking. It’s why communities across America are devising innovative ways to discourage men from buying sex—and holding them accountable if they do. No buyers, no business: a simple concept that’s bringing about real change.”
End Demand for Sexual Exploitation - Demand Abolition


Sex Trafficking: Who Are The Men Who Drive The Demand? – DVM For Hope

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Rape is often just a matter of personal opinion, too. And we can't stop it from happening by punishing it when it does. So why should we be imposing our personal preferences against it on people who feel it's acceptable behavior?

Did you miss the "voluntary activities" part of the post you quoted and replied to? Because that is decidedly missing in the situation of rape.

The idea that by paying the victim money to get them to agree to it, that a sexual assault didn't happen, is absurd.

I don't think anyone has said anything even remotely like this. In fact, there have been many posts that cite that prostitutes who were abused (that is, something happened outside of the range of their consent) might actually have a shot at taking that information to the authorities if their initial activities weren't illegal.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So what? Sex workers are not using their arms until they feel like they will fall off or working their hands until they are bleeding. Sex can be enjoyable. I don't think anyone enjoys laying sod.

Like many jobs there really is not that big of a difference in the sex trades than other ones.

You can't possibly be trying to say that laying sod is as bad as letting some stranger (who may be disgusting physically and otherwise, as well as have STDs) **** you orally, vaginally and/or anally. I mean, I hate my job but I'm not going to insult victims of this by saying it's as bad as having my body and dignity violated from the inside out.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But if it is licensed and controlled it would remove most of the non consensual.

Illegal sex work will happen regardless of it we regulate it or not. There's always going to be desparate people trading sex for money, drugs, alcohol or a place to stay. I've known many people like that. A few ended up with HIV because of it.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Are we better off with sex work being
illegal, ... Or are we better off with regulated legal sex work.

Is this a valid dichotomy (as in, it must be one or the other), when "decriminalization alone" is also a possibility? Make it not a crime, and impose no regulation. I'm just thinking in terms of the thoroughness of your post. It seems to try and paint it as an either-or situation, in favor of yours being the only "prostitution becomes legal" option.

 

[Revoltingest]

I definitely lean libertarian and favor greater liberty.
It seems though that traditionally the burden of prison or fines has fallen on the prostitutes who are victims of their circumstances, pimps, traffickers and even customers who demand an use them as a commodity .
I think it goes without saying that traffickers and pimps should be prosecuted. I would prefer to see ...


“Enforcing laws criminalizing buyers and changing social norms around the harms associated with the illegal sex industry is the fastest and most just response to the problems of prostitution and sex trafficking. It’s why communities across America are devising innovative ways to discourage men from buying sex—and holding them accountable if they do. No buyers, no business: a simple concept that’s bringing about real change.”
End Demand for Sexual Exploitation - Demand Abolition


Sex Trafficking: Who Are The Men Who Drive The Demand? – DVM For Hope

Sounds like a misandrist approach, ie,
go after men only to fix the problem.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is this a valid dichotomy (as in, it must be one or the other), when "decriminalization alone" is also a possibility? Make it not a crime, and impose no regulation. I'm just thinking in terms of the thoroughness of your post. It seems to try and paint it as an either-or situation, in favor of yours being the only "prostitution becomes legal" option.

I don't see legalization happening without some regulation.
There's danger to both the worker & the customer.
Government will notice that, & address it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The only difference is that money was traded for consent. Rape is defined by the lack of consent. And the ONLY difference between prostitution and rape is the buying of consent THAT WAS NOT AND WOULD NOT BE OTHERWISE PRESENT.

That is, I think, a false equivalency. It could as easily be said that when I sell something, the only difference between selling it and having it stolen was that money "bought my consent" to having it stolen. I think you would agree that that is a silly idea. I may have loved my stamp collection very much, but if I have decided -- for whatever reasons -- that I would prefer to direct the value of that collection to something else that I have of late come to value more, that there is nothing wrong with my doing so.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am certainly in agreement with referring sex workers, especially those who are caught in prostitution due to trafficking, to social services rather than prosecuting them. Nevertheless, I have read several studies and heard accounts of those who have escaped sex trafficking, that legalized prostitution is not the answer and in fact makes matters worse for the victims of sex trafficking.



The study’s findings include:

• Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.
• The effect of legal prostitution on human trafficking inflows is stronger in high-income countries than middle-income countries. Because trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation requires that clients in a potential destination country have sufficient purchasing power, domestic supply acts as a constraint.
• Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization.
• The type of legalization of prostitution does not matter — it only matters whether prostitution is legal or not. Whether third-party involvement (persons who facilitate the prostitution businesses, i.e, “pimps”) is allowed or not does not have an effect on human trafficking inflows into a country. Legalization of prostitution itself is more important in explaining human trafficking than the type of legalization.
• Democracies have a higher probability of increased human-trafficking inflows than non-democratic countries. There is a 13.4% higher probability of receiving higher inflows in a democratic country than otherwise.

Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?



The Dutch experiment to end abuse by legalizing prostitution failed. Amsterdam Mayor Job Cohen said: “Almost five years after the lifting of the brothel ban, we have to acknowledge that the aims of the law have not been reached. Lately we've received more and more signals that abuse still continues.” According to the Amsterdam police: “We are in the midst of modern slavery.”

Wherever prostitution is legalized, sex trafficking in the region increases, according to the International Organization for Migration. In the Netherlands, the sex industry increased by 25 percent after legalization. In Victoria, Australia, the number of legal brothels doubled, while illegal brothels increased by 300 percent. A 200-400 percent increase in street prostitution has been reported in Auckland, New Zealand since prostitution was decriminalized. After prostitution was legalized in Germany, the numbers of trafficked women increased dramatically.

Prostitution and Sex Trafficking: Inescapably Linked - Fair Observer

Glad to see that you are on the side of decriminalization. It is the only plan that reduces trafficking:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/be...x-work-in-new-zealand-its-history-and-impact/

 

[InChrist]

Sounds like a misandrist approach, ie,
go after men only to fix the problem.

I prefer the concept of going after and re-education of the “buyers”. Although, it may be that they are mostly men, it’s not about hating men. At least I don’t hate men.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I definitely lean libertarian and favor greater liberty.
It seems though that traditionally the burden of prison or fines has fallen on the prostitutes who are victims of their circumstances, pimps, traffickers and even customers who demand an use them as a commodity .
I think it goes without saying that traffickers and pimps should be prosecuted. I would prefer to see ...


“Enforcing laws criminalizing buyers and changing social norms around the harms associated with the illegal sex industry is the fastest and most just response to the problems of prostitution and sex trafficking. It’s why communities across America are devising innovative ways to discourage men from buying sex—and holding them accountable if they do. No buyers, no business: a simple concept that’s bringing about real change.”
End Demand for Sexual Exploitation - Demand Abolition


Sex Trafficking: Who Are The Men Who Drive The Demand? – DVM For Hope

Oh that's gonna work

Seriously? End demand from men? Are you kidding me? Men often have a very strong sex drive. Prostitution is not going to be ended. The solution is to make it safe for women.

Trafficking works because woman in need have no other choices. If a woman has rights she can report abuse. If a woman is on the wrong side of the law she cannot.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I prefer the concept of going after and re-education of the “buyers”. Although, it may be that they are mostly men, it’s not about hating men. At least I don’t hate men.

You do not understand men either.