Sex Before Marriage

[Passerbye]

God Gave us our own freewill. If any of the 4 things listed above were put into effect then God would be taking away our freewill. If he did this He would be evil. God cannot be evil, thus this is the only way. We must seek Him of our own free will. We must love Him out of our own freewill.

 

[jeffrey]

Let me add that for this very reason is why my wife does not want to be called a Christian and does not like church. Even though me thinks she's more of Christ's version of Christian then most.

 

[cardero]

God Gave us our own freewill. If any of the 4 things listed above were put into effect then God would be taking away our freewill. If he did this He would be evil. God cannot be evil, thus this is the only way. We must seek Him of our own free will. We must love Him out of our own freewill.

Free will isn't a gift or a will that is free if there are any conditions or restrictions on it.

 

[Passerbye]

Sorry, if 2, 3, or 4 were put into effect then God would be taking away our free will. If 1 was put into effect then children wouldn't be a gift from God, they would be automatic. If 1 was put into effect then God wouldn't be able to give children when He wants. Samuel's life wouldn't have been the same if God didn't give children freely, instead of out of obligation. Thus so much would have changed. God made it this way for a reason, and that reason brought about Jesus in the best posible way.

 

[cardero]

Sorry this is a double post.

 

[Passerbye]

Free will isn't a gift or a will that is free if there are any conditions or restrictions on it.

As you said, so it is. There are no conditions or restrictions of freewill. However, if it's not used in the right way then you die on this Earth and don't get to be part of the New Earth. Anyway, if you didn't make the right choices on this Earth, what makes you think you should get to be on the next one.

 

[cardero]

Sorry, if 2, 3, or 4 were put into effect then God would be taking away our free will. If 1 was put into effect then children wouldn't be a gift from God, they would be automatic. If 1 was put into effect then God wouldn't be able to give children when He wants. Samuel's life wouldn't have been the same if God didn't give children freely, instead of out of obligation. Thus so much would have changed. God made it this way for a reason, and that reason brought about Jesus in the best posible way.

Keep in mind if this was a great concern for God he could have easily included these into the designs for sex and we would have not been any the wiser. So which is it? Do we have free will to be responsible and accountable for our own actions or is there a judgment/punishment/anger of God waiting in effect for us if we fornicate?

 

[Passerbye]

So which is it? Do we have free will to be responsible and accountable for our own actions or is there a judgment/punishment/anger of God waiting in effect for us if we fornicate?

We have the freedom to be responsible and accountable for our own actions. However, it is God that decides what we recieve for them.

 

[Passerbye]

Keep in mind if this was a great concern for God he could have easily included these into the designs for sex and we would have not been any the wiser.

How?!?

 

[cardero]

How?!?

The only way this could be efficient and practical is if GOD created the concept of marriage with the design of sex, which would require explicit instructions about marriage which lends me to believe that marriage is a man-made concept and the ideas of sex and fornication come from humans that just don’t get it.

 

[Danny]

According to me there are two ways of looking at marriage. One is the legal point of view in which you are officially married according to the laws of the state. From another point of view you aren't obliged to marry. You look then from the natural point of view. Since according to the law you are not obliged to marry, you are permitted to have sex. From a religious point of view a marriage is voluntary and is not an obligation in the rules of religion. Making children without being married is just as well possible and is for everybody an option.
I am not married myself, and making children has never been a problem to me.
Having more than 16 children can for example never be possible without having different partners
If god gives you this gifts, you should be very thankfull.
The main strategy of god is to create a paradise. You shouldn't mind getting special gifts from god. He/She gives you gifts for the things you gave yourself as a servant, and wants to put your posession in the bigger puzzle of the so wanted paradise on earth.

 

[Ðanisty]

Okay, how many people here actually think that you shouldn't have sex unless you want children...honestly? I understand that most Christians view procreation as the primary purpose of sex, but how many people here think it's the only purpose? Passerbye, you implied earlier that if a married couple chooses not to have children, they should not have sex. Obviously, you're against abortion, but what are your opinions on birth control? Do you honestly, seriously believe that God won't give you a child unless you're capable of taking care of it? If so, why does God want crack babies? I'm sorry, but I've got to write off anybody who believes married people shouldn't have sex unless they want children as being an extremist and I honestly can't take you seriously from this point forward.

Also, you say that God's opinion is the only one that counts, but this website is not called Christian Forums. It's called Religious Forums and in case you haven't noticed, there are members here who aren't Christian. You can argue God's opinion is the only one that matters, but do so knowing that your arguments are void and useless to a good number of us.

 

[Passerbye]

Okay, how many people here actually think that you shouldn't have sex unless you want children...honestly? I understand that most Christians view procreation as the primary purpose of sex, but how many people here think it's the only purpose?

I didn’t say it was the only purpose. There are many purposes in it.

Passerbye, you implied earlier that if a married couple chooses not to have children, they should not have sex. Obviously, you're against abortion, but what are your opinions on birth control?

What I was saying is that if you want to have sex, be prepared for children. As for birth control, I don’t know of any birth control that works 100% of the time, short of getting a vasectomy and other operations like that. As for pills, I don’t see them as healthy and they tend to have side effects that don’t seem too good, plus in the event of a child being conceived while on them I don’t think they would be good for the baby. As for condoms, they don’t work all the time. If you want to use any of these then know this; you may decrease your chances of having a child, but ultimately it’s in God’s hands.

Do you honestly, seriously believe that God won't give you a child unless you're capable of taking care of it? If so, why does God want crack babies?

First let’s get something strait. Does God want people on crack? No. However, if you have sex without sufficient protection (such as a vasectomy) you are basically saying to God ‘go ahead and give me a child’. If you are on crack at the time of having sex then it’s your fault because you shouldn’t have been doing that (the drugs) in the first place. However, the reasons for allowing the creation of the child can be about the same as for allowing people to be poor, and such things as that. If you have nothing bad in your life then why would you look to God? If you think you have it all then why would you bother thinking you need God? The creation of the child is not bad. The situation the parent is placed in is a very hard one usually, however, if nothing's hard then who seeks after God? Just because God gives you a child and you messed it up right from the start doesn’t mean that God didn’t have a reason for giving you the child in the first place. Also, if the parent chooses to throw the baby out then that’s the parent’s choice. The parent did not trust in God, and instead trusted in his or her own judgment. Was it a sin to kill the baby? Yes. The life ceased to exist, and the person who made the decision of it holds the guilt for not having faith in God (plus the blood is on their hands.) Not that the other people involved don’t hold guilt in it too. Good thing there's forgiveness for sins. Thank God for that.

I'm sorry, but I've got to write off anybody who believes married people shouldn't have sex unless they want children as being an extremist and I honestly can't take you seriously from this point forward.

I didn’t say married people shouldn’t have sex. Sex is obviously a VERY important part of a marriage. Not the most important, but still very important. What I am saying is that you should be prepared for a child, in the event you receive one. Leave it up to God whether or not He gives you one. If He does, consider it a blessing. If it ruins your career plans, then so what. They’re meaningless anyway. There are so many more important things in life; and being part of the creation of a child is one of them. If you don’t think you can handle a child, or you think you won’t like one then just trust in God. He can always help. Is that so hard? However, if you don’t trust in God, and you keep the child, then you can grow bitter towards the child. Is it God’s fault you are bitter towards your own child? No. God gives gifts. It’s your choice what you do with them.

Also, you say that God's opinion is the only one that counts, but this website is not called Christian Forums. It's called Religious Forums and in case you haven't noticed, there are members here who aren't Christian. You can argue God's opinion is the only one that matters, but do so knowing that your arguments are void and useless to a good number of us.

Don’t think I don’t know that. I know that very well. Doesn’t mean I won’t still talk in the definite tense when referring to Jesus, God, the Bible, ect…. I don’t want to adopt the ‘this is what I believe’ way of speaking because that puts everything on the same level, and makes me sound like I am almost positive and only have ‘good reason’ to believe what I do, as opposed to knowing what is true and what is not concerning such things. If I am uncertain of something I will say so (or I forgot to say so.)

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

I don't want to adopt the 'this is what I believe' way of speaking because that puts everything on the same level, and makes me sound like I am almost positive and only have 'good reason' to believe what I do, as opposed to knowing what is true and what is not concerning such things.

Passerbye here's the thing: Whether or not you say, 'this is what I believe' or that you have 'good reason' won't make much difference to the validity of your argument to someone who doesn't already share your certainty.

 

[Ðanisty]

What I was saying is that if you want to have sex, be prepared for children. As for birth control, I don’t know of any birth control that works 100% of the time, short of getting a vasectomy and other operations like that. As for pills, I don’t see them as healthy and they tend to have side effects that don’t seem too good, plus in the event of a child being conceived while on them I don’t think they would be good for the baby. As for condoms, they don’t work all the time. If you want to use any of these then know this; you may decrease your chances of having a child, but ultimately it’s in God’s hands.

My husband and I have discussed vasectomy and we'd like to go through with it, but no local doctors will perform it. They refuse unless you've had a child already...some of them even refuse if you have daughters, but no sons.

First let’s get something strait. Does God want people on crack? No. However, if you have sex without sufficient protection (such as a vasectomy) you are basically saying to God ‘go ahead and give me a child’. If you are on crack at the time of having sex then it’s your fault because you shouldn’t have been doing that (the drugs) in the first place. However, the reasons for allowing the creation of the child can be about the same as for allowing people to be poor, and such things as that. If you have nothing bad in your life then why would you look to God? If you think you have it all then why would you bother thinking you need God? The creation of the child is not bad. The situation the parent is placed in is a very hard one usually, however, if nothing's hard then who seeks after God? Just because God gives you a child and you messed it up right from the start doesn’t mean that God didn’t have a reason for giving you the child in the first place. Also, if the parent chooses to throw the baby out then that’s the parent’s choice. The parent did not trust in God, and instead trusted in his or her own judgment. Was it a sin to kill the baby? Yes. The life ceased to exist, and the person who made the decision of it holds the guilt for not having faith in God (plus the blood is on their hands.) Not that the other people involved don’t hold guilt in it too. Good thing there's forgiveness for sins. Thank God for that.

I didn’t say married people shouldn’t have sex. Sex is obviously a VERY important part of a marriage. Not the most important, but still very important. What I am saying is that you should be prepared for a child, in the event you receive one. Leave it up to God whether or not He gives you one. If He does, consider it a blessing. If it ruins your career plans, then so what. They’re meaningless anyway. There are so many more important things in life; and being part of the creation of a child is one of them. If you don’t think you can handle a child, or you think you won’t like one then just trust in God. He can always help. Is that so hard? However, if you don’t trust in God, and you keep the child, then you can grow bitter towards the child. Is it God’s fault you are bitter towards your own child? No. God gives gifts. It’s your choice what you do with them.

You are oversimplifing it. Some people have no means to take care of a child, yet they still find themselves pregnant. Is this God's idea of a gift? However, if you want to discuss me and my desire to not have children, it is entirely a choice and it is a choice I will continue to make. My husband and I practice safe sex because we can't find someone to perform the vasectomy. I've been practicing safe sex for 13 years and it hasn't failed me yet. Perhaps I'm not even capable of getting pregnant (wouldn't that be nice!). However, if the time ever comes, I will still continue my choice to not have children and yes, that means abortion. Don't hold your breath on me feeling guilt over it either. A lot of women have guilt-free abortions.

 

[Passerbye]

My husband and I have discussed vasectomy and we'd like to go through with it, but no local doctors will perform it. They refuse unless you've had a child already...some of them even refuse if you have daughters, but no sons.

I would like to know what reasoning doctors have behind this. I guess I'll look it up, later.

You are oversimplifing it. Some people have no means to take care of a child, yet they still find themselves pregnant. Is this God's idea of a gift?

There are far too many scenarios to go through them all without making it too simple. I'm not God, so I can't go through them all like He does. I don't have the wisdom He does. I am only telling you that God has His reasons for all things. God lets things happen for reasons. God does things for reasons. He has more wisdom so we just have to trust Him. Our ways are not His ways. He knows what is best.

However, if you want to discuss me and my desire to not have children, it is entirely a choice and it is a choice I will continue to make. My husband and I practice safe sex because we can't find someone to perform the vasectomy. I've been practicing safe sex for 13 years and it hasn't failed me yet. Perhaps I'm not even capable of getting pregnant (wouldn't that be nice!).

Why don’t you want children? Is it the whole pregnancy thing, or the giving birth thing? I know they are harsh but women go through it and still want more children. Maybe the child itself would be worth it.

However, if the time ever comes, I will still continue my choice to not have children and yes, that means abortion.

I hope you change your mind about this. It’s a child. To say it’s not because it can’t live outside of the mother yet is just not right. I really do hope you change your mind.

Don't hold your breath on me feeling guilt over it either. A lot of women have guilt-free abortions.

That wasn’t the kind of guilt I was referring to. What I was referring to was guilt before God. Besides, you don’t know if you will feel guilt. Regardless, if God gives you a child then there’s a choice for you to make. I hope you make the right one, if that situation comes along.

 

[Ðanisty]

I would like to know what reasoning doctors have behind this. I guess I'll look it up, later.

Like I said, the reasoning is that we don't already have children. It's not a matter of the law...it's a matter of doctors making decisions for patients based on their personal feelings about it.

There are far too many scenarios to go through them all without making it too simple. I'm not God, so I can't go through them all like He does. I don't have the wisdom He does. I am only telling you that God has His reasons for all things. God lets things happen for reasons. God does things for reasons. He has more wisdom so we just have to trust Him. Our ways are not His ways. He knows what is best.

I'm sure that would work for people who believe that...

Why don’t you want children? Is it the whole pregnancy thing, or the giving birth thing? I know they are harsh but women go through it and still want more children. Maybe the child itself would be worth it.

Children are the reason I don't want them. I don't like them. It is just not for me. This is not an issue I have ever taken lightly and it is something that I have thought about for nearly 15 years with the consistent conclusion that I do not want to be a parent.

I hope you change your mind about this. It’s a child. To say it’s not because it can’t live outside of the mother yet is just not right. I really do hope you change your mind.

Well, we hold different ideas about that and you will have to settle with agreeing to disagree.

That wasn’t the kind of guilt I was referring to. What I was referring to was guilt before God. Besides, you don’t know if you will feel guilt. Regardless, if God gives you a child then there’s a choice for you to make. I hope you make the right one, if that situation comes along.

I am certain I won't feel guilt. I know myself very well. I will make the right decision for me. The decision to not have children is the best decision I can make for those potential children.

 

[Passerbye]

Like I said, the reasoning is that we don't already have children. It's not a matter of the law...it's a matter of doctors making decisions for patients based on their personal feelings about it.

Well, I guess they have the right to do that. It's their choice to make, whether or not they want to do the procedure.

I'm sure that would work for people who believe that...

It's not something just thought of to get around those tough questions. It’s something that’s found to be true in all known cases and to keep from constantly trying to figure out every situation when there’s no real need to it’s best just to leave it at “God knows best” (because He always does) and get on with the business of living.

Children are the reason I don't want them. I don't like them. It is just not for me. This is not an issue I have ever taken lightly and it is something that I have thought about for nearly 15 years with the consistent conclusion that I do not want to be a parent.

That’s understandable.

Well, we hold different ideas about that and you will have to settle with agreeing to disagree.

I agree that we disagree, and I will back off this subject for now.

I am certain I won't feel guilt. I know myself very well. I will make the right decision for me. The decision to not have children is the best decision I can make for those potential children.

I don’t think you would be the worst mother in the world. You seem like a nice enough person, and though you may not like children now you might feel differently when holding your own child. I don’t suppose that I know you very well at all (you probably know yourself better then almost anyone else) but I think having a child could possibly change your mind on this. But that’s just my thoughts on it. It's your choice.

 

[Ðanisty]

I don’t think you would be the worst mother in the world. You seem like a nice enough person, and though you may not like children now you might feel differently when holding your own child. I don’t suppose that I know you very well at all (you probably know yourself better then almost anyone else) but I think having a child could possibly change your mind on this. But that’s just my thoughts on it. It's your choice.

The possibility may be there, but I find it very unlikely and having a child is not something you can undo.

 

[Green Gaia]

Can anyone give me a logical reason not to have sex with someone you love?

Sure I can. But there are not questions of morality, but rather issues that deal with health safety, legality and practicality.