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Sex Before Marriage

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Mister_T, Jan 11, 2006.

  1. Scarlett Wampus

    Scarlett Wampus psychonaut

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    Oh :) no its not a problem, I just wouldn't put myself in that kind of situation and consequently I have a fulfilling sex life.
     
  2. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    It depends on which version of the Bible you use. Fornication is mentioned in the KJV. I'm going off of the NIV and it is a study bible with an index, commentary, and various inputs from hundreds of Christian theologists from around the world. The word/subject Fornication does not appear ONCE. It is not even in the index. Fornication in the NIV is replaced with sexual immorality. I have looked up and researched the subjects of sexual immorality and adultery and nowhere does it condemn having sex with some you love outside of marriage as long as the two people are single. HOWEVER, people have pointed out to me on this forum that it is implied in such books 1 Corinthians and these people have also presented some very good reasons for waiting until marriage. If two (single) people really love each other and they share that type of intimacy with each other they should not be condemed by their church. Chances are, If you love someone, you're planning on loving them forever (just like marriage only without the cerimony). Sure you two could break up before you're wed before a priest. So can two people after there married which means that cerimony was/is pointless. If you don't partake in a baptisim does that mean you can't truley love God and express that love to the fullest? Of course not. You don't need a ritual to truley/fulley love God and you don't need a ritual to truley/fulley love your soul-mate. You don't need rituals to love. All you need is love. That's it. This is such a big issue to so many churches (in the U.S.A. it seems) and they promote the idea that if you don't "love" the same way that they do that you spine will shrivel up, you'll grow hair on your palms, and you'll burn in hell. The Bible does not condemn it, but it does imply it. Therefore, churches should not be condemning it, but implying it. Actually churches should not be condemning people for ANYTHING because they have no right to. Yet it still happens (ironically I find that most of these people are still using the KJV) :banghead3
     
  3. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Like I've stated...it doesn't matter what anyone posts...you will read the scripture and will be able to justify what you do or don't do based upon your interpretation of the Bible and how the Holy Spirit moves in you.

    Warm wishes.
     
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  4. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    Short answer for me would be because God instructs against it. Here are some passages that back that up.
    "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him" (Genesis 2:18).
    "Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled." (Hebrews 13:4)
    "After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?" (Gen. 24:5). Sarah talking about her husband Abraham
    "When a man has taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war or be charged with any business; he shall be free at home one year, and bring happiness to his wife whom he has taken." (Deuteronomy 24:5)
    "render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does" (1 Corinthians 7:3,4).
    As a hedge against adultery God has said, "Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control" (1 Cor. 7:5).
    Solomon wrote several chapters in Proverbs to warn his son about the dangers of committing adultery. After a lengthy warning in chapter five, he admonishes him to "drink water from your own cistern" (Prov. 5:15). This verse instructs the young man to satisfy his sexual desires with his own wife and not with an immoral woman (Prov. 5:3).
    "Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice with the wife of your youth. As a loving deer and a graceful doe, let her breasts satisfy you at all times; and always be enraptured with her love. For why should you, my son, be enraptured by an immoral woman, and be embraced in the arms of a seductress?" (Prov. 5:18-20).

    I think for your argument to work, you wold have to find a specific authoritative passage that suggests that sex was deemed by God to be acceptable when the two people were not married. Every time that God speaks of sex, he speaks of it in the marriage relationship. This implies to me that the healthiest and godliest sexual practice, is sex with a person whom you are married to, and have proclaimed a lifelong bond with. I believe that the culminaiton of the profession of this bond, is for the two people to become one in sexual intercourse, letting their passions for one another act as their physical example of a spiritual union as long as they both shall live.

    Of course, there are several other factors to consider for sex before marriage, but this is the one that most adequately convinces me of my position. Hope that helps and good luck.
     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I've got to go along with you on that, Buddy.
     
  6. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Well unfortunatley, the majority of Christians don't/won't like the way the Holy Spirit "moves" in me. And if my interpretations don't match theirs, then I'm not part of the "club". If I was to present this particular argument to Christian churches around me, I would be judged, labled, and shunned (not necessarly in that order). I've seen this happen to other church goers who had a difference of opinion or an alternative way of thinking and it's not right. These small groups of people are condemned by their church for what they see as the truth and that prejudice will remain against them unless they change their way of thinking to the church majority. Which is funny because Christianity was/is persecuted the same way for being outspoken about the truth they believe in. Chistianity is definitley not the majority religion of the world. We're all on the same team man. Where's the unity?
     
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  7. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    I never said the act was acceptable, I just said it wasn't condemned. And like I stated above, waiting until marriage is implied and those passages you provided IMPLY that. What those do not do is INSTRUCT that. "Thou shall not kill" is an instruction. Pretty cut and dry. Killing=bad. Two people who fall in love and becoming one flesh outside of marriage.......probably not the best idea. BUT that does not make you an immoral hethen. "Thou shalt not have sex before marriage"...........not in there.
     
  8. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Yes. I've read this. You're right. Solomon is talking about the women being an adulterer, seductress, and labels her an immoral women. BUT, he also clearly describes what makes this women immoral and it is because she is married to another man who was away at war. It is NOT because they are both single, in love, and having sex out of wedlock. The Bible always labels adultery and sexual immorality with things such as sleeping with people for soley pleasure, prostitutes, sleeping with somebody elses spouse, incest, rape, and pagan rituals such as orgies. No where does it condemn two in people in love having sex without the wedding ritual.
     
  9. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Oh. And I forgot cheating on your spouse.
     
  10. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    ....and beastialty
     
  11. Passerbye

    Passerbye Member

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    Mister_T, the words translated fornication in the KJV and sexual immorality in NIV is porneia, and porneuo (Greek). These words encompass a large amount of sexual things, including but not limited to having sex outside of marriage (fornication). I will not go into porne and pornos (prostitutes; female and male, respectively.)

    Porneia; Noun
    1. Adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
    2. Sexual intercourse with close relatives; Leviticus 18
    3. Sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mark 10:11
    4. Metaphor for the worship of idols.

    Porneuo; Verb
    1. To prostitute one's body to the lust of another
    2. To give one's self to unlawful sexual intercourse. To commit fornication.
    3. Metaphor meaning to be given to idolatry, to worship idols. To permit one's self to be drawn away by another into idolatry.

    These words appear 19 times in the Bible, in the New Testament outside Revelation. I will quote the NIV, and replace the appropriate word with the Greek for you.

    Matthew 5:32 - But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for *PORNEIA*, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
    Matthew 15:19 - For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, *PORNEIA*, theft, false testimony, slander.
    Matthew 19:9 - I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for *PORNEIA*, and marries another woman commits adultery."
    Mark 7:21 - For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, *PORNEIA*, theft, murder, adultery,
    John 8:41 - You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not *Children of PORNEIA*," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."
    Acts 15:20 - Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from *PORNEIA*, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
    Acts 15:29 - You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from *PORNEIA*. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
    Acts 21:25 - As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from *PORNEIA*."
    1 Corinthians 5:1 - It is actually reported that there is *PORNEIA* among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife.
    1 Corinthians 6:13 - "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for *PORNEIA*, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
    1 Corinthians 6:18 - Flee from *PORNEIA*. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins *PORNEUO* sins against his own body.
    1 Corinthians 7:2 - But since there is so much *PORNEIA*, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.
    1 Corinthians 10:8 - We should not commit *PORNEUO*, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
    2 Corinthians 12:21 - I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, *PORNEIA* and debauchery in which they have indulged.
    Galatians 5:19 - The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: *PORNEIA*, impurity and debauchery;
    Ephesians 5:3 - But among you there must not be even a hint of *PORNEIA*, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
    Colossians 3:5 - Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: *PORNEIA*, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
    1 Thessalonians 4:3 - It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid *PORNEIA*;

    I hope this settles the subject.
     
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  12. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    While your disertation on the biblical word may be "spot-on", it does nothing but show how one group feels about sex before marriage. It neglects other cultures and other purposes. Nothing has been "settled".

    Evolution and the study of natural sexuality show that marriage is not a requirement for any aspects of sex.
     
  13. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    No it doesn't settle it. But this does. And here's the link to prove that I didn't B.S. it.
    http://www.gerrior.net/Resources/SexAndTheBible/03.Porneia.htm

    In the New Testament we see the word "Porneia" used several times by the authors. It can be found in the original texts from which the Testament is derived up to twenty-six times. The agreement on the translation of this word, which is the modern English root of pornography, is as wide as the translators involved.
    In the following table, the word Porneia is taken from Matthew 19:9

    "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." (Matthew 19:9 KJVA)

    Bible Basic EnglishLoss of virtueCommon EnglishTerrible sexual sinKing JamesFornicationStrong's DictionaryHarlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry Young's LiteralWhoredomLiteral TranslationFornication Various meanings of Porneia by Translation
    From the above, we see that the bias is toward some egregious sexual error. Is it any wonder that this becomes the common theme given the anti-sex nature of the Conservative Christian church. However, it is vital to note the figurative meaning of idolatry from Strong's Dictionary. We must ask at what point did the word become a metaphor for idol worship.

    Take a look sometime at Studylight.org's definition of porneia. If you read definition number one, you see the mainstream concept: illicit sexual intercourse. However, read definition number two and you will note the metaphor is for idolatry, just as we see with Strong's Dictionary. The sub note on number two reads, "[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols". There are other places in the New Testament where we see this very topic.[/font]

    "In your letter you asked me about food offered to idols. All of us know something about this subject. But knowledge makes us proud of ourselves, while love makes us helpful to others." (1 Corinthians 8:1 CEV)

    [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]The Corinthians had written Apostle Paul posed a series of dilemmas and questions to which he answered via this Epistle. [/font]

    • [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]They mentioned that there existed a member sleeping with his step-mother.[/font]
    • [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]They had continued using Lawsuits rather than fixing the problems personally.[/font]
    • [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]They wanted to know if it was better to marry or stay single.[/font]
    • [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]They asked if eating food sacrificed to idols was okay.[/font]
    [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Paul goes o[/font]n with his answers. The word porneia appears several times in Paul's many letters, in each case it is beside the word, 'arsenokoitais'. In his book, "Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality" (1980), Boswell argued that the term 'arsenokoitais' in 1Co 6:19 and 1Ti 1:10 signified a male prostitute rather than a generic homosexual, as it is commonly translated. The arguments presented are based on several factors. The primary reason is that vice listing exactly what is prohibited, Paul's focus is instead on anything related to false god worship.

    What exactly was Paul's problem with idolatry? It violated Law Number One, Love God. Though he recognized there are no other gods but the Creator, he still had his Pharisaic roots which included the prohibition of idols. In the modern state of Israel, prostitution is legal. In Judaism, pre-marital sex is not forbidden. What is forbidden in the modern version of Judaism is exactly what was forbidden thousands of years ago; Idol worship. Looking to that as the root issue, we can see that when Paul used the word Porneia, he was not refuting sexual activities, but idolatry.

    How can this be concluded? Look to a later verse from the same letter to the Corinthians:

    "We are free to do all things, but there are things which it is not wise to do. We are free to do all things, but not all things are for the common good." (1 Corinthians 10:23 BBE)

    Paul knew that nothing is forbidden under the new covenant. He could only advise strongly to avoid that which might violate the Law of Love. Over time, the Bible's many translations have changed the original meaning of porneia from idolatry to fornication. Why is this the case? Because Paul and the subsequent church did such a good job in wiping out idol worship that the translators needed something to fill in the blank.
     
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  14. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    I rest my case. Sex is beautiful. I don't know why the church makes it so ugly. Maybe it's the same guilt and shame that drives us to clothe our nudity.
     
  15. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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  16. Passerbye

    Passerbye Member

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    How one group ‘feels’? I’m talking about how God ‘feels’ on this subject. That's the group that counts.

    Who said it was a requirement for sex? You can go have sex with anything you like. It’s your spirit that’ll be in trouble for it afterwards (and sometimes your body as well) (and sometimes your soul depending on how things go.)

    From what I can see, it became a metaphor from the way God was speaking to them in the Old Testament. God speaks of Israel as His wife, and says that she slept with other men (meaning idolatry.)

    The problem with saying that Paul intended to say idolatry is that he already mentioned that in the same sentences. With Jesus the problem is he is talking about divorce and such. This lends to an interpretation of it on the sexual side. Trust me, if the Church has wanted anything in the past it’s the permission of God to go hump anything that moves, willfully, and still have salvation. Come on, it was the Roman Empire. If it meant that then Paul would have explained it that way. What you have here is people not wanting it to be true. Look at the context.

    Jesus speaking on divorce, not on idolatry.
    Matthew 5:32 - But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for *PORNEIA*, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
    Matthew 19:9 - I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for *PORNEIA*, and marries another woman commits adultery."

    Jesus referring to evil thoughts. He is listing physical ones, so it would make more sense in the literal interpretation.
    Mark 7:21 - For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, *PORNEIA*, theft, murder, adultery,

    Paul mentioned things that are forbidden once each. Idolatry would not have merited a second mention in the same sentence.
    Acts 15:20 - Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from *PORNEIA*, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
    Acts 15:29 - You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from *PORNEIA*. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
    Acts 21:25 - As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from *PORNEIA*."

    Here is Porneia being used in its sexual sense. Can’t even argue with this one at all. It’s plain.
    1 Corinthians 5:1 - It is actually reported that there is *PORNEIA* among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife.

    Possible reference to idolatry. However, he was speaking on letting yourself go and falling into a sin. This seems to lean way more towards the literal side than the metaphorical side.
    1 Corinthians 6:13 - "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for *PORNEIA*, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

    Possible reference to idolatry.
    1 Corinthians 6:18 - Flee from *PORNEIA*. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins *PORNEUO* sins against his own body.

    Definite reference to the sexual side. He is speaking on having your own wife. Does that mean that the wife keeps you from idolatry? No. In the Old Testament it’s usually the wife that leads a man into idolatry.
    1 Corinthians 7:2 - But since there is so much *PORNEIA*, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.

    In what he is referring to they did both. They bowed down to the idols, and had sex with the women. In fact it was the women that led them into it.
    1 Corinthians 10:8 - We should not commit *PORNEUO*, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.

    He doesn’t seem to be referring to those who have gone into idolatry. He seems to be speaking of those who have indulged. Idolatry does not seem to be an indulgence. However, I guess if you want it to mean idolatry in one then that’s okay.
    2 Corinthians 12:21 - I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, *PORNEIA* and debauchery in which they have indulged.

    He mentions idolatry in this list. He wouldn’t have put it twice; once the metaphorical form, and the second time the literal. That would make no sense.
    Galatians 5:19 - The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: *PORNEIA*, impurity and debauchery;

    He goes on to list things that are not metaphors. One metaphor among a list of literal things? Was Paul trying to confuse everyone? No. It’s literal, and can not be figurative.
    Ephesians 5:3 - But among you there must not be even a hint of *PORNEIA*, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.

    He is saying all these are basically idolatry. Because of this there is a slim chance that it means idolatry, since he summed up the list with idolatry. It would be ridiculous for him to be using the metaphor.
    Colossians 3:5 - Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: *PORNEIA*, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

    From verse 4 we see that it’s not likely that he is referring to idolatry.
    1 Thessalonians 4:3 - It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid *PORNEIA*;

    Sex is beautiful. Man is what makes it so ugly by taking it out of what it’s intended for… MARRIAGE.

    Paul says this:
    1 Corinthians 7:2 - But since there is so much *PORNEIA*, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.

    Now, if porneia is only for after marriage then why does Paul say that because there is so much porneia every man should have his own wife. He is obviously speaking of the people that are not married. Finding a woman won’t keep them from idolatry. Finding a woman won’t keep them from adultery. Finding a woman would keep them from sex outside of marriage, because at least they would have someone to share a bed with and release some of that sexual tension that this world tries to build up in every person every time the person leaves his own house.

    Obviously you, or just the people you are listening to, don’t want it to mean fornication. We can’t interpret the Bible based on what we want. We are evil, so of course we would want to say that we can do evil and it wouldn’t be evil. This, however, is wrong. We need to listen to God, not ourselves. If there’s a spirit trying to lead you into thinking that this isn’t evil then it’s not the Holy Spirit. We are told by Paul to test the spirits to see if they are from God. This spirit has proven false. Repent and move on. And don't worry about it. These days things are becoming so muttled by people that false doctrin is almost everywhere. It's crazy. Just try to be more prepared next time. Ask God to help you with that.
     
  17. Passerbye

    Passerbye Member

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    Sorry, forgot to read the last part of post 93.
    This is not how it is though. Porneia is a metaphor for idolatry. It doesn't even make sense to say idolatry in all those cases. Because of that porneia must have had the meaning of sexual sins back then too. Also, we can find it in the Septuagint as well. We have the Hebrew and the Greek versions of that. Both are pre-church. Both say it had a literal meaning back then, as well as the metaphor.We must thus look at the context, and that proves what it says.
     
  18. Passerbye

    Passerbye Member

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    What Paul ment was not that nothing is forbiden. He says that he won't be mastered by anything. This is the focus of it. You can fall into sin all you want. You can slip on sin until you break your legs, but that doesn't mean that you can do it willfuly. We are not mastered by sin. Jesus says that no one who sins will enter the kingdom of heaven. This is true. But the word used doesn't realy mean that one sin will keep you out. It means that anyone who continues in sin won't enter the kingdom of heaven. It's present-continues-active (hope I got that term right.) This means that we can sin, but we don't do it habitualy. We don't do it out of our own will. Paul himself says that the good he wants to do he doesn't, while the evil he doesn't want to do he does. We don't sin willfuly. We repent of that (turn away from.) We are not mastered by sin. God said to Cain: "sin wants to have you but you must master it". We are not to be mastered by sin, we must master it by going against it with our freewill. Cain was mastered by sin. We shouldn't be. We have repented. We are forgiven. We should be masters of it.
     
  19. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    If GOD had any discrepancies about sex I am sure this would have been included into the design of sex. Keep in mind with all of the power and wisdom that GOD possesses these conditions could have been easily and reasonably devised.


    For example: If GOD had certain discriminations about premarital heterosexual sex…



    1) that it should be used only for pro-creation, than everyone who had sex would immediately have a baby. No questions asked. Every time someone had sex, an infant would be produced. This is not the case.

    2) then people who are not married would not be able to make the parts fit until they acquired a legal document committing them to wedlock. This, as plainly observed, is not the case.

    3) that once a couple is married, a man’s penis will only fit in his wife’s vagina and no one else until till death do they part. If you try to be unfaithful it won’t work. This also has not been wisely considered in the design of sex.

    4) then His anger and wraith at such an offense would not wait until after you have committed fornication but before you enacted the deed, which again is not the case.





    So how do we explain how all these billions of people throughout the centuries have actually gotten away with fornication? As we can prove, the design of sex can be used naturally and unnaturally from the original design. Sex is very open ended with as many options as our imaginations or preferences can acquire and experience. Anyone who has encouraged multiple sexual encounters (marital or premarital) can contend to this. As I understand it, God had 33 years to experience sex in a physical existence and chose not to pursue it. That is God’s choice, not the choice He has decided for us.
     
  20. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    Ratings:
    +1,008
    I could not agree with you more. People love to judge you by their standards. Follow your heart. Do what's best for you. :D
     
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