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Seventy metal books found in cave in Jordan

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Zardoz, Mar 31, 2011.

  1. Zardoz

    Zardoz Wonderful Wizard
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    What do you think? True, or hoax?

    (No, this isn't for April Fools (AFAIK) and I don't think anyone else posted on this yet)


    [​IMG]

    Read more: 70 metal books found in Jordan cave could change our view of Biblical history | Mail Online
     
  2. Riverwolf

    Riverwolf Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
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    Interesting. I'm putting my money on an April Fool's Joke, personally, but we'll see in a few days.
     
  3. ellenjanuary

    ellenjanuary Well-Known Member

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    I think it is pretty cool. Saw it on Yahoo yesterday. ;)
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I saw this, too. I found it particularly interesting since these bear a striking resemblance to the metal plates Joseph Smith said he translated the Book of Mormon from. Of course, back in 1830, ancient writings on metal plates were unheard of and the concept was completely laughable. The assumption was that had any Middle-eastern people of that era recorded their secular or religious histories, prophesies or doctrines on anything, it would have been on papyrus or something of that sort. No metal plates had ever been discovered then, nor would any be for well over a hundred years. Since the 1950's, quite a few similar plates have been found. Obviously, to me as a Mormon, this particular discovery is fascinating.
     
  5. confusedius

    confusedius The Shadow

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    A bit suspicious, but I would love for it to be true...
     
  6. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

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  7. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I would examine the books and surrounding demographics first starting with determinations made in regards to its chemistry.
     
  8. horizon_mj1

    horizon_mj1 Well-Known Member

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    Well considering that plates claimed to have been found by founders of other religions (yet no one can see them, study them or authenticate them) remain a mystery, I think this is an awesome find. Maybe finally we can put an end to arguments of rather or not Jesus of Nazareth was in fact crucified and what may have been going on the world at the time. From reading other similar findings, maybe it was a personal journal of one of the apostles or even just a witness.
     
  9. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    And if they are, it will prove that everything they contain is false, right? :rolleyes:
     
  11. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    not at all.

    Im guessing at the date due to the content
     
  12. ellenjanuary

    ellenjanuary Well-Known Member

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    ...because of the size they may be considered "personal codecs," which were fashionable at that time.
     
  13. Zardoz

    Zardoz Wonderful Wizard
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    Making large sheets of lead would also be much harder, expensive, and perhaps difficult to hide and/or transport. In any event, it's obvious this wasn't an april fools article. Bad timing on something like this!
     
  14. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    "Fake: Seventy metal books found in cave in Jordan labeled most important find in Christian history

    . . . . A Jordanian Bedouin opened these plugs, and what he found inside might constitute extremely rare relics of early Christianity. The director of the Jordan’s Department of Antiquities, Ziad al-Saad, says the books might have been made by followers of Jesus in the few decades immediately following his crucifixion. “They will really match, and perhaps be more significant than, the Dead Sea Scrolls,” says Mr Saad. ”Maybe it will lead to further interpretation and authenticity checks of the material, but the initial information is very encouraging, and it seems that we are looking at a very important and significant discovery, maybe the most important discovery in the history of archaeology.”

    However it turns out they are FAKE.

    Peter Thonemann at Oxford has staked his career on the conclusion that the lead codices being discussed recently are forgeries executed within the last 50 years. The following is what he wrote to Elkington in an email after he was asked late last year to comment on the authenticity of the plates based on some photos:

    A surprisingly easy task, as it turns out! The Greek text at the top of your photo no. 0556 reads: ΛΛΥΠΕΧΛΙΡΕΛΒΓΛΡΟΚΛΙΕΙΣΙΩΝ, followed by ΛΛΥΠΕ in mirror-writing.

    This text corresponds to ΛΛΥΠΕ ΧΛΙΡΕ ΛΒΓΛΡ Ο ΚΛΙ ΕΙΣΙΩΝ, i.e. ἄλυπε χαῖρε, Ἀβγαρ ὁ καὶ Εἰσίων, followed by the word ἄλυπε again, in mirror writing. The text at the bottom of your photo no. 0532 is the first part of the same text again: ΛΥΠΕΧΛΙΡΕΛΒΓ, i.e. [ἄ]λυπε χαῖρε, Ἀβγ…

    The text was incised by someone who did not know the Greek language, since he does not distinguish between the letters lambda and alpha: both are simply represented, in each of the texts, by the shape Λ. The text literally means ‘without grief, farewell! Abgar also known as Eision’. This text, in isolation, is meaningless.

    source
     
  15. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    In spite of the the books debunking, I'm fairly sure this will propagate in some fashion.
     
  16. Zardoz

    Zardoz Wonderful Wizard
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    I'm unconvinced that this can be proved linguistically. People were mostly illiterate, and Greek was not even the native language, so the errors could be the legitimate errors of a 1st century author.

    I would put much more trust in the scientific study of the actual plates themselves.

    The fact their whereabouts are a mystery is suspicious.
     
  17. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Other than linguistics issues, was it common or heard of during that time to produce literary works on lead? I was curious to the significance of the metal if any. Also in question is that of the commonality of metal books arranged in bounded leaf given the target time frame of 1 A.D of which to me seems a bit early for that yet although it might be at the end of the century considering Martial's work (Apophoreta) of which is said to be the first recorded instance of a codex in book form.
     
  18. Zardoz

    Zardoz Wonderful Wizard
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    Lead is easy to work with, and I think it would be used were an 'indestructible' record was desired, being not flammable or susceptible to water damage.

    There is a legend from the same time period that a 'treasure map' of the locations of the holy temple objects was also written on a metal plate.
     
  19. horizon_mj1

    horizon_mj1 Well-Known Member

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    What I found very interesting was what appeared to be the "tree of life" symbol. The codex seems to have runic writings (from what the article shows).
     
  20. croak

    croak Trickster

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    The source of that source elaborates further: Peter Thonemann on the Lead Codices « Daniel O. McClellan
     
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