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Seuss contra Trump

Discussion in 'Political Debates' started by Jayhawker Soule, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    It kind of goes with the territory of wanting to be President--wanting to have power --that those wanting power will tend toward more autocratic, authoritarian practices and policies. Yes, EVERY president of the last 100 years, or more, with the possible exception of Gerald Ford (who had the office thrust upon him), have displayed this, and whether any are more or less like Hitler, Stalin, or whomever is pretty much irrelevant: THEY ALL WANT POWER, and the people who support them (and I'm not really talking about voters, here) WANT THEM TO HAVE THAT POWER.
     
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  2. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
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    I know you have been wanting to use that image again (or one like it). So congratulations.

    I don’t like the Hitler comparisons either, but for perhaps different reasons than you. I think they are a distraction. The last week we have seen a huge increase in immigrant children being ripped away from their families. And instead of talking about what this U.S. administration has done in 2018, we are talking about history.

    I don’t know if Trump is as bad as Hitler, or if he is worse, or less bad than Hitler. I will let future historians puzzle that out.

    But even if your argument is that Trump is not as bad as Hitler, that is a terrible defense of the man and his actions. How much evil can be done and defended by saying “still not as bad as Hitler”?
     
  3. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
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    I have been tentatively and temporarily reassured by some of the things I have seen in the last week. Governors refusing to send the national guard, airlines refusing to transport migrant children, and general protests over the policy of zero tolerance. I am somewhat, hesitantly reassured that the comparison of Trump/Hitler is less relevant because the U.S. 2018 is not Nazi Germany.

    Do you understand what I am saying? Am I being too optimistic?
     
  4. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    I didn't want to use the same old one which graces so many threads,
    so I searched for one with more personality. Glad you approve.
    That might be my biggest reason.
    It's ahead of being polarizing, & of being unbelievably deluded.
    You really cannot discern if Trump is worse or better than Hitler?
    I wonder about your standards of evaluation.

    I'm going out on a limb here with a prediction.....
    Trump will be less evil than Hitler.
    - No concentration camps.
    - No showering leading to ovening.
    - No invading Poland.
    - No Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
    - No bombing of London.
    It isn't a defense of Trump.
    It's a criticism of the claim that Trump is/will be similar to/the same as Hitler.
    Those claiming it have extraordinarily weak rationalizations for it.

    If you called Trump a fetching ballerina, I'd dispute that too.
    But it wouldn't be a defense.
    What do you believe Trump has done which rises to Hitlerian heights?

    This reminds me of my sister-in-law.
    Her family is eastern European, Jewish, & all Democrats.
    They lost some members in the nastiness leading up to WW2.
    She still says GW Bush is worse than Hitler.
    I no longer discuss politics with her.
    When common ground is entirely lacking, it's better that way.
     
    #64 Revoltingest, Jun 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  5. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
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    The simple fact that you would ask me that question shows that you completely misunderstood my post. Let me try to be clear.

    I will not be making any comparisons between Donald Trump and Hitler. I have not done that, and I am not going to do that now. I will leave that to future historians. You are doing that with your “predictions”. I am not playing that game.

    I will say that Donald Trumps policies have been incredibly cruel and have done and will continue great damage. I will not opine as to whether they “rise to Hitlerian height” or not. But they certainly do not need to do so before I will condemn them.

    Is that clear now?
     
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  6. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    It was clear before.
    If you're unable to evaluate which is worse, Hitler or Trump, then
    it's reasonable to assume you've some basis for comparing them
    in the first place. And lo, you've cited his being "incredibly cruel".
     
  7. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
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    Yes. And?
     
  8. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    I was done.
     
  9. idav

    idav Being
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    He hates media unless it is non critical. He wishes to discredit all media unless it praises him.

    It isn’t sanctions but his wish to create all out trade war and his isolationist approach.

    Trumps agreement with dictators include, wanting to be president forever, feeling a murderous dictator “gets him”, agreeing with cheating tactics, locking up opponents, to name a few things. Meeting with Kim wasn’t an issue, praising him and praising the fact that people stand at attention to him while saying he wants that just a few days after alienating allies that are free democratic nations is a huge issue.

    Fascism is anti-liberal which is much more a conservative Republican thing. Remember the question is how he is racist.

    The issue is making the oligarchy more powerful whole stripping the common citizen of power especially the poor.

    There are many definitions of fascism but Hitler is pretty much a gold standard so being fascist makes people.like Hitler
    21st Century Fascism: Trump Style – Countercurrents
     
  10. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    He has a love hate relationship with media.
    How is this Hitlerian?
    We'll have to see how that plays out.
    The tariffs could be to create a trade war, as you say...
    ...or they could be a negotiating ploy...or just tariffs,
    which are more FDRian than Hitlerian.
    You don't really know his intent.

    Still, Trump is far from an isolationist, since he's still
    continuing Americastan's role in policing the world.
    This isn't really establishing a Trump-Hitler parallel.
    While prior presidents have allied with dictators,
    I don't see Trump forging new such relationships.
    Do you?
    You believe Trump is a racist & anti-liberal.
    Isn't that what the lefts says of all Republicans?
    I thought the "oligarchy" was in power during Obama's reign too.
    So I've been told by lefties here on RF.
    Your reasons are all speculation, generalizations, red herrings, & demonization.
    I made a better case for Bill Clinton being Hitler than you have for Trump.
    At least I cited actual policy & attempted policy.
     
  11. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    I do not know. Clinton was before my time.
     
  12. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    To compare presidents with Hitler requires context.
    Without knowing it, one would miss Trump being
    not so different from so many before him.
     
  13. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    I did not compare him to Hitler. He is just an opportunist who is exploiting the newly arising fascist tendencies in politics to gain and keep the Presidency.
     
  14. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Woohoo!
    That means detente for the rest of this evening....er, morning.
     
  15. idav

    idav Being
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    I dont know why you keep trying to bring up Hitler. The post I responded to was asked how things are fascist. I answered and have plenty of examples. Nazi Germany is not the only fascists country, there was Italy at a time and Japan as the article noted. Also someone else’s doing it in the past doesn’t mean it isn’t fascist. The combination of things is the issue. They keep piling up making Trump more and more like an authoritarian fascist dictator wannabe. He wants to squash media that isn’t positive about Trump, He wants to be a dictator as he said about his love for Russia, China and N Korea. He has now created concentration camps for children. He has alienated us from the friendly allies and only brought us closer to countries that are civil rights nightmares. He is on a trade war path which is current, you don’t have to see the future, it’s happening now. If anything Trump is doing everything he can to solidify the elites power. I don’t care about whataboutism this is about what is currently happening. I don’t know who is racist but apparently many republicans want authoritarian leader possibly a theocracy. The parralels for Trump and his anti constitutional views have not been so prominent under one president. Oh he’s like this with Clinton and like this with FDR and like this with Obama and like this with Wilson or Reagan, Nixon, well we are talking about one person having all the worst traights I can think of from all our past presidents rolled up into one orange man. There are a lot of comparisons, we’d be here all day.

    Trumps America
    “Fascism is a system of government marked by centralization under an authoritarian dictator (having) a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, (encouraging) violent suppression of the opposition, (which) typically (practices) a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism (Source: Wikipedia).”
    IS TRUMP IMPOSING FASCISM ON AMERICA?

     
  16. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Godwin's Law in the op. Is this a record
     
  17. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Did you read the cartoon in the OP?
    Do you know its history?
    Do you think "Adolph" is about meat tenderizer?
    Adolph's® Seasoned Meat Tenderizer

    This is rich....the OP makes it about Hitler.
    The 2nd post (mine) objected to making it about Hitler.
    Godwin's Law is now such an objection?
     
  18. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    As for Trump wanting to be a dictator, I don't see that as knowable.
    His "anti constitutional" views are a matter of perspective.
    I saw Bill Clinton as far worse in abusing the Constitution.
    (He was very anti-liberty.)
    It depends upon how one reads the law, & where weight is given.
    So far, I don't find Trump seizing dictatorial powers.
    What have you seen in this vein?
     
  19. idav

    idav Being
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    His words he wears his heart on his sleeve, in other words says what he thinks.
    Of course you do but that’s very nineties. We are talking about the current president and I did acknowledge has similarities (very bad ones) to several US presidents as well as the fascist leaders from Germany Italy and Japans past. All the horrible things you can pick and choose from history all rolled into one orange man.
    Of course and Hitler, I mean Trump treats people who disagree with him, non-white foreigners and non-straights with a heavy hand.
    I didn’t say he is a dictator, he is a wannabe dictator cause he says/hints it every chance he gets.
     
  20. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    The problem with labeling Trump as a "fascist" is that applying the same criteria
    to other presidents would yield the same result for some. Since we agree (I hope)
    that Americastan isn't a fascist country, this would be inconsistent.
    Looking over Americastanian presidential history, I just don't see evidence
    that Trump stands out as a fascist. I'd certainly prefer that he be more of a
    civil libertarian, but I say the same of all presidents I've observed. Trump
    isn't even the worst in that regard.

    It's common for presidents to try to steer the country in a fashion which
    curbs liberty. Trump, Nixon, Clinton, LBJ, Reagan....all have done things
    anti-libertarian. It makes sense to fight the actual efforts authoritarian,
    rather than apply extreme partisan labels.
     
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