Seneca's description of the soul

[amorphous_constellation]

So a few months ago I had read 'The Happy Life' by Seneca, and now I'm working on the first volume of his moral letters.. I thought that it would be remiss of me not to try discussing a few of his ideas. The following seems to encapsulate his thinking on what a soul was:

"What we have to seek for, then, is that which does not each day pass more and more under the control of some power which cannot be withstood. a And what is this ? It is the soul, — but the soul that is upright, good, and great. What else could you call such a soul than a god dwelling as a guest in a human body ?

A soul like this may descend into a Roman knight just as well as into a freedmans son or a slave. For what is a Roman knight, or a freedman's son, or a slave ? They are mere titles, born of ambition or of wrong. One may leap to heaven from the very slums. Only rise

And mould thyself to kinship with thy God. 6

This moulding will not be done in gold or silver; an image that is to be in the likeness of God cannot be fashioned of such materials ; remember that the gods, when they were kind unto men/ were moulded in clay."

Seneca, Lucius Annaeus. Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales. Translated by Richard Gummere Ph.D, vol. 1, G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1917, p. 229.

Hopefully that is cited correctly, though the book is obviously public domain

------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for my thoughts on these things, if I have any

First of all, I'd like to address that last bit actually, where he says that the gods came here molded in clay. I assume that being gods, they were previously immaterial beings, and that being 'molded in clay' was not their natural state. And although it is not heading toward the discussing I am aiming for, this another piece of evidence for Christianity being influenced by paganism, apparently. That is, the idea that a god would come down and don the human form out of kindness to the human, to relate to him or her better. ( this is not necessarily my belief on what happens or happened, but that's besides the point )

I think what I find intriguing about Seneca's overall comment, is that you have to pursue and attain the 'soul' while you are living. It does not appear here to be a force that you are necessarily born with, like in Christianity or Judaism etc. It is not here the animist force that animates all life by default, i.e. the breath of god etc., but it is an animist force that you might gain while living, as supposedly you are without a soul until you gain one. ( not necessarily my view ) So then, when gods come to men, 'they mold themselves in clay (or flesh), and when we come to god, I guess it is saying that we are to mold ourselves in the soul force, opposite that of clay.

Several more similarities to the biblical god, are several apposite qualities, and I'm not saying here from where they sprung, but that they are apposite ..They are that the gods are made of something immaterial, and that this represents something that is ' upright and good. ' And as well, that it is available to anyone in a social hierarchy; that it somehow can convey a sort equity and/or equality to all. One can see how all of this would have been steered into the Christian paradigm over the next few centuries..

And with that, I'll turn it over to you. I feel like there's more I could say about the passage, but it hasn't quite come to mind. I think I admire it , and maybe I admire some things when I can't quite break them down

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think what I find intriguing about Seneca's overall comment, is that you have to pursue and attain the 'soul' while you are living. It does not appear here to be a force that you are necessarily born with, like in Christianity or Judaism etc.

I see what is missing here is that there is 5 levels of spirit/soul at play in this world.

The human spirit or soul is given at conception as per scriptures. That soul contains the potential of becoming more than an amimal.

God comes into the equation upon acceptance of the higher level of spirit.

The Bible talks about this as being born again. Thus the human spirit, needs the spirit of faith to be born into the holy spirit. In that way the potential of our soul can become reality.

This is a talk on the 5 levels of spirit, if you are interested.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The Bible talks about this as being born again.

Actually I had totally overlooked that .. yes, there's a connection there, hm

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So a few months ago I had read 'The Happy Life' by Seneca, and now I'm working on the first volume of his moral letters.. I thought that it would be remiss of me not to try discussing a few of his ideas. The following seems to encapsulate his thinking on what a soul was:

"What we have to seek for, then, is that which does not each day pass more and more under the control of some power which cannot be withstood. a And what is this ? It is the soul, — but the soul that is upright, good, and great. What else could you call such a soul than a god dwelling as a guest in a human body ?

A soul like this may descend into a Roman knight just as well as into a freedmans son or a slave. For what is a Roman knight, or a freedman's son, or a slave ? They are mere titles, born of ambition or of wrong. One may leap to heaven from the very slums. Only rise

And mould thyself to kinship with thy God. 6

This moulding will not be done in gold or silver; an image that is to be in the likeness of God cannot be fashioned of such materials ; remember that the gods, when they were kind unto men/ were moulded in clay."

Seneca, Lucius Annaeus. Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales. Translated by Richard Gummere Ph.D, vol. 1, G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1917, p. 229.

Hopefully that is cited correctly, though the book is obviously public domain

------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for my thoughts on these things, if I have any

First of all, I'd like to address that last bit actually, where he says that the gods came here molded in clay. I assume that being gods, they were previously immaterial beings, and that being 'molded in clay' was not their natural state. And although it is not heading toward the discussing I am aiming for, this another piece of evidence for Christianity being influenced by paganism, apparently. That is, the idea that a god would come down and don the human form out of kindness to the human, to relate to him or her better. ( this is not necessarily my belief on what happens or happened, but that's besides the point )

I think what I find intriguing about Seneca's overall comment, is that you have to pursue and attain the 'soul' while you are living. It does not appear here to be a force that you are necessarily born with, like in Christianity or Judaism etc. It is not here the animist force that animates all life by default, i.e. the breath of god etc., but it is an animist force that you might gain while living, as supposedly you are without a soul until you gain one. ( not necessarily my view ) So then, when gods come to men, 'they mold themselves in clay (or flesh), and when we come to god, I guess it is saying that we are to mold ourselves in the soul force, opposite that of clay.

Several more similarities to the biblical god, are several apposite qualities, and I'm not saying here from where they sprung, but that they are apposite ..They are that the gods are made of something immaterial, and that this represents something that is ' upright and good. ' And as well, that it is available to anyone in a social hierarchy; that it somehow can convey a sort equity and/or equality to all. One can see how all of this would have been steered into the Christian paradigm over the next few centuries..

And with that, I'll turn it over to you. I feel like there's more I could say about the passage, but it hasn't quite come to mind. I think I admire it , and maybe I admire some things when I can't quite break them down

I see you are building a complete picture.

What is also needed, along with the consideration of the level of spirits, is the concept of the Virgin Birth, also taught in the Bible.

This explains how there is a level of being that is not born from clay as man is, but does take form in this world. They are more than men.

You have started a massive subject, always happy to discuss.

Regards Tony

 

[amorphous_constellation]

always happy to discuss.

That's good, well I'll come back and read that section of text you posted later, and see if I have any questions

 

[osgart]

I'm convinced that to recognize one's own soul something has to touch that soul at heart.

Patterns of information is how people avoid dealing with the soul. Self as illusion, self falsely equated to ego. All these conceptions to avoid dealing with the reality of the soul. Or otherwise people miss the reality of self soul because of a technical way of perceiving reality.

Of all the endless paths humans can take where nothing too profound happens that you won't miss life when its gone here, some people may have constructed their worlds where meaninglessness and fun, and a fading life contents them.

Some people truly awaken to enlightening understandings and deep love. Enduring love can be quite painful, especially without a divine faith.

Enduring love is one way of recognizing one's own soul.

 

[Bird123]

So a few months ago I had read 'The Happy Life' by Seneca, and now I'm working on the first volume of his moral letters.. I thought that it would be remiss of me not to try discussing a few of his ideas. The following seems to encapsulate his thinking on what a soul was:

"What we have to seek for, then, is that which does not each day pass more and more under the control of some power which cannot be withstood. a And what is this ? It is the soul, — but the soul that is upright, good, and great. What else could you call such a soul than a god dwelling as a guest in a human body ?

A soul like this may descend into a Roman knight just as well as into a freedmans son or a slave. For what is a Roman knight, or a freedman's son, or a slave ? They are mere titles, born of ambition or of wrong. One may leap to heaven from the very slums. Only rise

And mould thyself to kinship with thy God. 6

This moulding will not be done in gold or silver; an image that is to be in the likeness of God cannot be fashioned of such materials ; remember that the gods, when they were kind unto men/ were moulded in clay."

Seneca, Lucius Annaeus. Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales. Translated by Richard Gummere Ph.D, vol. 1, G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1917, p. 229.

Hopefully that is cited correctly, though the book is obviously public domain

------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for my thoughts on these things, if I have any

First of all, I'd like to address that last bit actually, where he says that the gods came here molded in clay. I assume that being gods, they were previously immaterial beings, and that being 'molded in clay' was not their natural state. And although it is not heading toward the discussing I am aiming for, this another piece of evidence for Christianity being influenced by paganism, apparently. That is, the idea that a god would come down and don the human form out of kindness to the human, to relate to him or her better. ( this is not necessarily my belief on what happens or happened, but that's besides the point )

I think what I find intriguing about Seneca's overall comment, is that you have to pursue and attain the 'soul' while you are living. It does not appear here to be a force that you are necessarily born with, like in Christianity or Judaism etc. It is not here the animist force that animates all life by default, i.e. the breath of god etc., but it is an animist force that you might gain while living, as supposedly you are without a soul until you gain one. ( not necessarily my view ) So then, when gods come to men, 'they mold themselves in clay (or flesh), and when we come to god, I guess it is saying that we are to mold ourselves in the soul force, opposite that of clay.

Several more similarities to the biblical god, are several apposite qualities, and I'm not saying here from where they sprung, but that they are apposite ..They are that the gods are made of something immaterial, and that this represents something that is ' upright and good. ' And as well, that it is available to anyone in a social hierarchy; that it somehow can convey a sort equity and/or equality to all. One can see how all of this would have been steered into the Christian paradigm over the next few centuries..

And with that, I'll turn it over to you. I feel like there's more I could say about the passage, but it hasn't quite come to mind. I think I admire it , and maybe I admire some things when I can't quite break them down

From what I see, Seneca doesn't have a clue. We are Spiritual beings in our true natures. That is who we really are, not this physical form which is our transportation in this world. There is no soul to be acquired or shaped.

This physical world was created because it's time-based causal nature is perfect for learning. God has the sum of all knowledge. When one learns and grows, one walks toward God. Everyone is walking toward God!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Patterns of information is how people avoid dealing with the soul. Self as illusion, self falsely equated to ego. All these conceptions to avoid dealing with the reality of the soul. Or otherwise people miss the reality of self soul because of a technical way of perceiving reality.

Of all the endless paths humans can take where nothing too profound happens that you won't miss life when its gone here, some people may have constructed their worlds where meaninglessness and fun, and a fading life contents them.

Hm.. well a problem is, that our society and culture doesn't really seem to be geared to provide energy for the soul.. Not to be a downer, but a peaceable life, supplemented with fun, often does not characterize the american life, for example. For example, I have one facebook friend who is a nurse, and for a long while now she has posts have seemed rather anxiety ridden, due to the virus problem. So in other words, the mundane life you describe is a ways up the latter, and life where you often encounter the profound is near the top of the mountain. I made a thread a while back where I described how we should use technology to foster a hunter-gather lifestyle however, and I think that this would energize the soul by putting our physiology into a world it likes

From what I see, Seneca doesn't have a clue. We are Spiritual beings in our true natures. That is who we really are, not this physical form which is our transportation in this world. There is no soul to be acquired or shaped.

This physical world was created because it's time-based causal nature is perfect for learning. God has the sum of all knowledge. When one learns and grows, one walks toward God. Everyone is walking toward God!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

A reason I like this idea by Seneca, is that it does not afford malevolent people a soul, for example. If you have to be born again, or if you must work the soul like it was a craft, then the earning of souls is reserved for the good alone. I guess a strength in your view however, is that it is charitable. However, an apposite conclusion you might draw is this : knowledge from god, that you earn from your learning, would be apposite to Seneca's soul . I like your observation that time can easily be perceived as platform for learning. I cannot imagine how a conscious mind would fail to learn something if it had time

 

[Bird123]

Hm.. well a problem is, that our society and culture doesn't really seem to be geared to provide energy for the soul.. Not to be a downer, but a peaceable life, supplemented with fun, often does not characterize the american life, for example. For example, I have one facebook friend who is a nurse, and for a long while now she has posts have seemed rather anxiety ridden, due to the virus problem. So in other words, the mundane life you describe is a ways up the latter, and life where you often encounter the profound is near the top of the mountain. I made a thread a while back where I described how we should use technology to foster a hunter-gather lifestyle however, and I think that this would energize the soul by putting our physiology into a world it likes



A reason I like this idea by Seneca, is that it does not afford malevolent people a soul, for example. If you have to be born again, or if you must work the soul like it was a craft, then the earning of souls is reserved for the good alone. I guess a strength in your view however, is that it is charitable. However, an apposite conclusion you might draw is this : knowledge from god, that you earn from your learning, would be apposite to Seneca's soul . I like your observation that time can easily be perceived as platform for learning. I cannot imagine how a conscious mind would fail to learn something if it had time

As creations of God, we are all children of God. People who make bad choices are learning lessons we have already learned. In a multilevel classroom, this can be expected. Is this the time to value so many of the petty things mankind does like hating, judging, blaming, condemning, punishing and wanting payback? Would this really be a Higher Level??

What is more important wanting payback or solving the problem? God is Unconditional Love. Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. Is payback really the best for anyone? I think not.

I think it's important to see those petty things mankind holds so dear for what they really are. Since mankind demonstrates so much of it, one must be careful not to copy or follow.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[amorphous_constellation]

As creations of God, we are all children of God. People who make bad choices are learning lessons we have already learned. In a multilevel classroom, this can be expected. Is this the time to value so many of the petty things mankind does like hating, judging, blaming, condemning, punishing and wanting payback? Would this really be a Higher Level??

What is more important wanting payback or solving the problem? God is Unconditional Love. Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. Is payback really the best for anyone? I think not.

I think it's important to see those petty things mankind holds so dear for what they really are. Since mankind demonstrates so much of it, one must be careful not to copy or follow.

Not to attribute this view to Seneca , but one interpretation of his words could be that we are but clay, not created by any god, and that we must come to god. The divine force then lends us something of it. A parallel view might be attributed to the Christians, who believe in being born again. None of this is necessarily my view, I tend to think the soul force is more all-encompassing. Your view of how we learn, will possibly fit in with any system. In any case , those who relish any of the petty qualities you describe, are surely the farthest away from the god - force, whatever the specifics are , regarding their being that way. As to unconditional love, who can truly show it that dwells on earth.. I imagine that everybody has their limits. I try to love as best I can , but it asks to be mutual

 

[Bird123]

Not to attribute this view to Seneca , but one interpretation of his words could be that we are but clay, not created by any god, and that we must come to god. The divine force then lends us something of it. A parallel view might be attributed to the Christians, who believe in being born again. None of this is necessarily my view, I tend to think the soul force is more all-encompassing. Your view of how we learn, will possibly fit in with any system. In any case , those who relish any of the petty qualities you describe, are surely the farthest away from the god - force, whatever the specifics are , regarding their being that way. As to unconditional love, who can truly show it that dwells on earth.. I imagine that everybody has their limits. I try to love as best I can , but it asks to be mutual

You are right. Unconditional Love is not always an easy thing to do. As for the children, Most all children are at different levels of understanding. On the other hand, they are all Loved Unconditionally by God. With that in mind, all will make it. There is no time limit on learning.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!