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Selfless Atheism vs Selfish Theism
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
Undisputedly true. 20th century Communism is ample evidence of that.
But that's not Heaven, as generally described in Abrahamic societies.
Tom
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
Interesting post. I used to think the same thing, but that was based on the false assumption that the only possible motivations for helping others are pure altruism or getting into heaven. But the reality is there could be lots of motivations for people to help others besides altruism and empathy. Vanity is a big one. I believe (though I might be remembering wrong), that it was one of Nietzsche's quotes that first introduced me to the concept of vanity as a motivator for people to help others.
I am thinking selfishness and trying to get into heaven are a contradiction in theist beliefs.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I certainly don't think the pursuit of heaven is a good way to go about morality. I do think good morality does have selfish benefits. But I think that the best morals comes from having the sole desire of doing them, and seeing them done for no other reason then it is a joy, and a peace, and a pleasure to do so.
To me good morals are selfless and the right kind of selfish too. I could easily say that atheists have no impetus to have good morals. I do think theists do have every impetus to do good. But impetus itself is no basis for morality, or being good.
So the best people could come from either side of the atheist/theist coin.
To me good morals are selfless and the right kind of selfish too. I could easily say that atheists have no impetus to have good morals. I do think theists do have every impetus to do good. But impetus itself is no basis for morality, or being good.
So the best people could come from either side of the atheist/theist coin.
Never met an atheist who "frequently praises himself for it" but i have seen lots of buildings, departments, wings etc named after Christians who donated towards theirs construction/upkeep.
In fact, i im betting you cannot show me one instance of an atheist praising themselves for doing good deeds
PureX
Veteran Member
I think you're conflating motive with result.
An atheist who commits his or her life to helping others could still have ulterior motives.
epronovost
Well-Known Member
What comparable motive to "I want to get a divine reward" would you say an atheist could have and would that motive be incompatible with "I want to get a divine reward"?
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True, but so is the converse.
We do things to ourselves and to other people. We can affect another person's heart if they let us. So if Heaven is helping someone do what's right, I would only mess with it if you think you can motivate them better. There is also the concept of the lotus; a person can grow up in a swamp and be a beautiful flower. An atheist can be a beautiful person.
Gargovic Malkav
Well-Known Member
Could be a reason. For the moralist it's rather the opposite of a higher purpose, but for some it's the most important thing in the world. But I was thinking more about the ideology they believe in. Like Che Guevara(He was probably catholic officially. But I doubt religion was important to him as this goes against the principles of marxism).
@Sunstone
I think there has been enough tragedy resulting from atheists "committing themselves to helping others" that we can understand there is no ideological protection from deluding yourself into believing that self benefit is altruistic. That is, I'm unsure as to the number of theists who recognize that they are moral primarily/entirely out of self interest.
Still, I theoretically agree. An atheist who actually is charitable for the sake of being charitable is existing more fully moral. That is when compared to a theist who grudgingly follows right solely for the sake of saving themselves. Given that all other moral dimensions are equal.
I think there has been enough tragedy resulting from atheists "committing themselves to helping others" that we can understand there is no ideological protection from deluding yourself into believing that self benefit is altruistic. That is, I'm unsure as to the number of theists who recognize that they are moral primarily/entirely out of self interest.
Still, I theoretically agree. An atheist who actually is charitable for the sake of being charitable is existing more fully moral. That is when compared to a theist who grudgingly follows right solely for the sake of saving themselves. Given that all other moral dimensions are equal.
So are you an atheist now?
It's just funny how you made that comment about an atheist right after your comment about theists. You've just shown that you are exactly like that atheist who you were talking about.
- I said nothing about 'comparable', and
- I'm not interested in addressing a failure of imagination on your part.
Of course. What is also true is that I've participated in food drives. soup kitchens, and overnight shelters for many, many years and I do not recall meeting a single Christian who seemed primarily motivated by the promise of some heavenly reward.
People are complex. Guidelines concerning whose humanitarian service is most pure or most worthy strike me as unhelpful.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
I am an Ayn Rand style theist, along with some beliefs in Christianity, rebirth AND reincarnation/afterlife (basically, I think I believe the only way the lake of fire makes sense for a loving God is a sort of Buddhist rebirth thing where the dead are consumed (dead) and reformed, while those who are saved retain their memories (living/quick) ), and varying degrees of Taoism (I believe God causes harm and as well as good things, for a larger purpose).
Anyway. So the Ayn Rand influence looks at something about "gaining the world but losing your soul" and looks at a people-pleaser like my mother who spends all of her time and energy trying to do what other people want. We have a family friend who before all this pan(dem)ic started, she went to Richmond almost every week to visit her, basically being at her beck and call. Now that she can't be visited she calls during dinner, but when Mom tries to call her she's "too bust right now." She's a rude ***** who actually has zero respect for the sacrifice my mother makes, but because she seems sweet and it seems like her husband is controlling her (the husband is a constant complainer who makes her stay by his side), my mom gets in her business (actually Mom, they're perfect for each other, leave her be and get on with your life).
So then, we have all this pandemic happening, and people are telling me that I need to think that someone elss telling me how to live is being unselfish, and I'm being selfish for wanting to live as I choose. Nope. I'm already indoors a substantial amount because there's nowhere to go. I'm not gonna wear a mask, not if 1000 people tell me about how wearing a mask is not really about protecting me but protecting other people. I will not live my life worrying about other people. And I got into a sizeable argument with someone about this very point.
The most unselfish thing you can do is live your own life. Being selfish is trying to control others. Being selfish is expecting someone to drive to Richmond from a small town to visit you, or calling them at seven pm when you've cooked a nice meal and talking about how your husband says he's dying and you're worried (like he hasn't said he's dying the past five years, while you've been unable to go out to a nearby restaurant) and expecting the person listening to your call to not eat dinner until 7:45 pm when it now needs to be reheated.
You wanna be unselfish? You do you, and leave other people's drama to them. Yes, I know this seems the very notion of selfish. Until you see the kind of havoc "unselfish" people cause by being busybodies.
Let's have a non-pandemic example. Suppose I have friend who has a bad housing situat (she has to give up her shower time on the way to work so that baby can get a bath) . She wants to move to the city because her house is overcrowded, and there's no option of just you know getting a much cheaper house in the country where there isn't insane rents, annoying city rules, and I never see her again. Suppose I decide she should come live with me because we have a spare guest room. I should keep my ideas to myself, she should save up and pay a contractor to upgrade her bathrooms, or just tell her sister off. If she goes ahead with her plan for new housing this is debt up to her eyeballs and nobody is hiring during a pandemic. Seems like a pretty expensive price for not simply telling her sister "look you're being a selfish *****, I need to take a shower and you can bathe your child in a sink with a basin."
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It takes a great deal of discipline to realize one's true nature and to become stable in this knowledge.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Selfless Atheism vs Selfish Theism
From a Religious POV the Selfless Atheist acts better than the Selfish Theist