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Selfless and Selfish

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Does being selfless follow the golden rule; which follows the two greatest commandments? or service to other's as self?

    one's choice to only look out for self's concern would be selfish and one's choice to look out for everyone's welfare would be selfless?
     
  2. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    It doesn't necessarily follow. Most "selfless" acts are driven by selfish motives such as the pleasure derived from the act of compassion and generosity, or expectation of the act being reciprocated based on mutual trust and respect. A rational understanding of selfishness should necessarily take this into account.

    In some sense, being selfish follows the golden rule. We have a desire for self-preservation and do not wish to be harmed. So building up a reciprocated relationship in which we do not harm each other is very much a selfish act and a rational one.

    Typically, "selfishness" is thought of acting in an irrational, impulsive and destructive way based on instant gratification. These ultimately represent the way in which our desire for pleasure is perverted into sadistic and destructive avenues by a morality which hurts people by turning "morality" into an obligation and a duty in which we are expected to be "selfless" to the point of self-harm. I don't think such views are healthy nor a particularly effective basis for a workable and fulfilling morality. we have no obligation to be "nice" or "agreeable" to one another, but in the long-run it is selfish to be so as it makes life go along more smoothly.
     
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  3. Tmac

    Tmac Active Member

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    I believe that if you are truly selfish (to the nth degree) you will find that altruism satisfying.
     
  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    one is subjective and the other is objective. if string theory is correct then at the quantum level we're all connected. self-preservation isn't lost in having compassion. one cannot love all and exclude any; that would be abuse against self. so being selfish for All is following the golden rule as you've indicated.

    abuse can be against others and/or against self. compassion is never denied to self or other's as self.
     
    #4 Fool, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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  6. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    it's the quality of being both selfless and selfish when justified that makes for healthy living. I don't see why people have to choose one or the other when they can be both based on merit.

    the situation dictates what's best. at best consideration and care , what's mutually beneficial is often the best course.

    sometimes being selfless at heart when the giving is deserved is seeing someone rewarded,, and it is a reward to see it, and do it, even when nothing in return comes back. But being deserved the giving usually comes back to you in unexpected ways though this is not the intention.

    what person wouldn't want to see reward in what they deserve though? that's loco.
     
  7. Maccabeaus

    Maccabeaus New Member

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    Really good thread Fool. I think the Bible way is actually one where we have to be a bit selfish and being a little bit selfish is healthy. We seek wisdom in order to better ourselves and to make it to the Kingdom. Proverbs 9:12 says £If thou art wise, thou art wise for thyself; And if thou scoffest, thou alone shalt bear it." If we are selfless, then yes, we may take care of ourselves for the sole reason that we don't want others to worry or be burdened by us. But the message of the Bible is primarily 'what must we do to be saved', not, 'what must we do to save others'.
     
  8. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I agree, but got criticized for "daring" to criticize the golden rule.

    Not that that I'm particularly concerned about the reciprocation in helping folks, still it makes me happy doing so, so I suppose that makes it selfish too.
     
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  9. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Science doesn't qualify anything.

    Definition of science
    :the state of knowing :knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
    2a :a department of systematizedknowledge as an object of study
    • thescience of theology
    b :something (such as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge
    • have it down to a science
    3a :knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method
    b :such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena :natural science
    4:a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws
    • cooking is both a science and an art
    5capitalized :christian science

    Definition of SCIENCE
     
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  10. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    a house divided against itself, falls. that is why self-hatred and abuse are not consistent with loving with all thy heart, all the mind, and all thy being and your neighbor as "yourself".


    so what must we do to be saved is a result of our actions vs the actions of another?


    love is the primary reason jesus was sent and saved from the grave. works the same way for everyone. love, love, love is always the action because God or Love is the result.
     
  11. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    qualify

    mid-15c., "to invest with a quality," from Middle French qualifier (15c.) and directly from Medieval Latin qualificare "attribute a quality to; make of a certain quality," from Latin qualis "of what sort?," correlative pronominal adjective (see quality) + combining form of facere "to make" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put"). Meaning "to limit, modify" is from 1530s. Sense of "be fit for a job" first appeared 1580s. Related: Qualified; qualifying.


    a canine doesn't qualify as a feline, ovine, bovine, caprine, et al.
     
  12. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Science itself does not qualify anything. If you refuse to hear then you refuse to hear.

    Qualifying comes through testing and even then only qualifies to less than 100%.
     
  13. Tmac

    Tmac Active Member

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    That is a disappointing answer coming from you.

    If I am selfish, to the bone, then, if I am intelligent I will do anything that make life better for me, if I were to learn that doing things for others actually enhances my life I would be a fool not to and more to the point not doing so would mean that I am not selfish to the bone.
     
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  14. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    there are two types of errors. error from ignorance and error from willful intent. those who commit error from willful intent are well aware of what they are doing and they do it hoping they won't get caught. they weigh the risk and take it anyway.
     
  15. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    qualify
     
  16. Tmac

    Tmac Active Member

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    And which one would you say you are guilty of, now that you bring them up.
     
  17. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the subject isn't personal. I don't see a need to make it so.

    everyone has choices. only the Absolute, or the All, has the right to be self-preservation because there obviously is no other to be selfish of and it would wish that all it's members be in harmony, paradox. anything otherwise is living in ignorance of the all, or willfully enjoys being negative by attacking others to feed it's ego, thinking it is the All or attempting to become the All.

    The All wishes to know itself. The member either doesn't know the All because it doensn't know self, or again willfully refuses to recognizes All or to consider it's own actions in lieu of other as self.


    All in all, that which refuses to recognize other as self is in an infinite loop. until it questions it's own thoughts, beliefs, and realizes it's creating its own heaven/hell by state of mind, it will continue to chase it's tail.
     
  18. Tmac

    Tmac Active Member

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    Actually everything is personal, life is changing, we are changing, hopefully we learn and then apply, you totally disregarded something I said (and I am a living example of it) by introducing something about errors and willful disobedience that relevancy was difficult to see.
     
  19. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    everyone has the power to change, yes. but again it's not unique to a person. the potential for good and evil are choices that a person makes. unfortunately for those who make it personal, it's usually positive choices for self and negative choices for others.

    the All takes care of all it's members, Oneness is like that, I AM that i am is like that.

    the I that sees itself as separate from God, and other, is still at war and a house divided will fall.


    the form counts for nothing, the action is everything.
     
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