Self-Realization

[stvdv]

Are those the people who experience Samadhi or are those the people who rely on their bookish knowledge?

Nothing wrong with books.

You took out of context
Key word is "rely"

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why then traditional advaita of Shankara prescribes attaining knowledge? What's the use of sravana, manana, and nididhyasana when one is already free?

Well, if we go by the same traditional advaita teachings (especially the quote of Ramana from your signature), then i would say, who is it that needs knowledge to become enlightened, when all that exists is the one, non-dual Self?

Yes, when I was in quarantine, I saw you people discussing Shravana, manana and nididhyasana. I have yet not gone to that topic. But the meanings are simple. Shravana (hearing), because at that time there was no written material. And even when things were written, most Indian religious education was by hearing. So, it could not be 'pathan' (reading) for a long time. Manana is regurgitation, analysis of what has been heard. Nididhyasana is internalizing what analysis has concluded.

adhyAsana: abode, settlement, seat, presiding over, act of sitting down upon - https://www.learnsanskrit.cc/translate?search=adhyAsana&dir=au

You took out of context. Key word is "rely"

I did not say rely only on books and forget about teachers and experience. Books (as also internet now) are essential parts of the process of learning.

 

[ameyAtmA]

EDIT:
So Advaita does admit that at a relative, empirical level, there is bondage and ignorance which needs to removed. If so, masters like Gaudapada, Shankara, Ramana etc. should have been explicit in their statements, like who should seek moksha (from the POV of which reality).

They are. It is called adhikAra bheda i.e. levels of maturity to absorb the teachings.
Shankaracharya also gave pre-requisites to his students , what they should have before embarking on the study of jnAna - first Atma-shuddhi

Statements like "no one needs liberation as they are already Brahman" can give a wrong idea to people who are new to spirituality and will instead make people adopt a materialistic lifestyle.

You said no books, gurus etc. are needed. How do you expect this intellectual realization to dawn upon us, without the help of books, scriptures or gurus?

whoever said this said it in a context and has to be taken as 'resume where you left off'
Gaudapada Shankara Ramana cannot be blamed for the phenomenon called internet - a double-edged sword.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Shankaracharya also gave pre-requisites to his students , what they should have before embarking on the study of jnAna - first Atma-shuddhi

U mean chitta-shuddhi right?
Atman is immutable. It can never be tainted by impurities. Its the manas or chitta that needs purification.

 

[Martin]

U mean chitta-shuddhi right?
Atman is immutable. It can never be tainted by impurities. Its the manas or chitta that needs purification.

It seems like "Atma" is used in a broader sense here:
Atmashuddhi, Ātmaśuddhi, Atman-shuddhi: 9 definitions

 

[Aupmanyav]

One reaches 'samAdhi' only when the mind has been cleared of all baggage. Having reached 'samAdhi', one returns to the world. The achievements of 'samAdhi' remain with the person.
SamidhAdhAna: Placing on of wood or fuel.
SamidhA: Oblation to fuel or firewood
Sanskrit - Dictionary
When that happens, it is 'samAdhi'
So, that is the process. Prepare for it and reach it.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

I missed this message.

So, the term 'realization' in the school of Advaita is a completely intellectual thing then. Thanks for this information. And this same term 'realization' in schools of yoga and even in the ramakrishna society, means a totally different thing. A deep mystical experience in samadhi.

What people call Samadhi is simply stilling the mind for sometime. There is nothing mystical about it and it is *always* temporary. This state can feel blissful to some people as it is a form of escapism. But once you return from this temporary, meditative state, all your real world problems still remain.

This is the root problem, though. Over the years, you have convinced yourself that there is a grand mystical reality to discover - a discovery that will put an end to all your worldly troubles. As long as you continue to believe this, you will keep searching.

Then again, if advaitins don't go after mystical samadhi experiences, then i wonder why advaitins speak of "nirvikalpa samadhi" in their books and articles?

Early Advaitins do not speak of these things. Later Advaitins borrowed Yoga constructs and wrote about Nirvikalpa Samadhi, etc.

Are there really any freedom from wordly problems?

No.

Certain problems can be solved, but there is no escape from "worldly problems" as they are part of life. If you can see this, then you will naturally stop searching for mystical concepts of liberation.

Statements like "no one needs liberation as they are already Brahman" can give a wrong idea to people who are new to spirituality and will instead make people adopt a materialistic lifestyle.

What is the point of pursuing something that does not exist? And what is wrong with a materialistic lifestyle? No one can be happy all the time, but billions of people around the world live normal lives and are reasonably happy. In India, if you visit large temples, you will find countless Sanyasins by the roadside. I don't think anyone would say they are happier.

How many people here are ready to live in a cave for the rest of their lives like Ramana?
Who here would choose to live like Vivekananda in poverty and die prematurely of Tuberculosis?
Who here would choose to be a homeless Sanyasin living on alms?

No one. And the reason should be obvious.

You said no books, gurus etc. are needed. How do you expect this intellectual realization to dawn upon us, without the help of books, scriptures or gurus?

First, it is the books and Gurus who create the problem. They tell you worldly life is bad, they make you feel trapped, they tell you about the concepts of reincarnation, liberation and offer you a solution that will get you to escape reincarnation through various techniques (Bhakti, Yoga, meditation, self-inquiry, etc)

They create the problem to which they offer the solution. Left to yourself without these books and Gurus, you would not bother with reincarnation or liberation. You would live the life you have as best as you can - with its positives and negatives.

You do not need more books and Gurus. You do not need more learning. What you need is "unlearning" and that cannot come from books. You have to do it on your own. And it is not a multi-year exercise. You can do it now and move on with your life - however imperfect it may be.

 

[ajay0]

What about the mind? When it becomes mute in samadhi, does it (according to your opinion), registers the experience?

The mind is separate from the memory.

The mind is just the compulsive thoughts and emotions. When the mind ceases in samadhi through meditation and attention, the bliss of the Self within is experienced.

Obviously this is registered in the memory. This is helpful in reducing our attention to sensory pleasures because we clearly perceive the joy of the Self superior to sensory pleasures.

 

[ajay0]

Shankara says this numerous times - Knowledge liberates. I maintain that liberation is an intellectual thing and there are no additional steps beyond intellectual understanding.

Your understanding is wrong.

How can the Self which is subtler than the intellect and thought be mere intellectual knowledge !

"There is only one way to know the Self, and that is to realize Him yourself. The ignorant think the Self can be known by the intellect, but the illumined know he is beyond the duality of the knower and the known.” ~ Kena Upanishad

“Brahman is the ultimate reality; it is simultaneously Saguna and Nirguna; divisions are due to ignorance. Mind and intellect can never catch hold of it; they have only one option and that is to merge with it.” ~ Amit Ray


It is the experiential knowledge of the Self that liberates, and not mere intellectual knowledge.