Self-Realization

[The Crimson Universe]

As said before, I'm no expert, but I think this is experienced by neti, neti (not this, not that).

Thanks. I wonder what others have to say about neti neti... like If a person after thinking long and hard on his true Self, finally arrives at a conclusion that he's not this, not this, then is it really enlightenment? Isn't neti neti simply analysing using the rational dualistic mind, when we should be actually transcending it.

 

[stvdv]

So if the mind actually doesn't register anything in samadhi, then why is it called realization? There needs to be someone to 'realize' something, don't you think?

Mind is just a bundle of thoughts

 

[stvdv]

There needs to be someone to 'realize' something, don't you think?

Hence the Quest "Who Am I"

Solves all

 

[SalixIncendium]

Thanks. I wonder what others have to say about neti neti... like If a person after thinking long and hard on his true Self, finally arrives at a conclusion that he's not this, not this, then is it really enlightenment? Isn't neti neti simply analysing using the rational dualistic mind, when we should be actually transcending it.

Neti neti is an expression used in jnana yoga. It facilitates the realization of what one is by dropping everything one is not. However, simply knowing rationalizing this intellectually is not enlightenment. It is merely a means of facilitating enlightenment.

 

[Martin]

Mind is just a bundle of thoughts

Mind is much more than a bundle of thoughts. There are also perceptions, feelings and moods. Thoughts are really a sort of internal commentary, and the most superficial level of experience.
I would say that mind is the basis for experience, or the "space" in which experience occurs. So when the mind ceases, so does experience, for example in deep sleep, or under a general anaesthetic.

 

[Martin]

Thanks. I wonder what others have to say about neti neti... like If a person after thinking long and hard on his true Self, finally arrives at a conclusion that he's not this, not this, then is it really enlightenment? Isn't neti neti simply analysing using the rational dualistic mind, when we should be actually transcending it.

Given that the mind is the basis for experience, I'm still not sure what "transcending" the mind actually means.
Or perhaps you mean transcending the intellect? A more intuitive approach, feeling rather than thinking?

 

[Martin]

Hence the Quest "Who Am I"
Solves all

I'd agree but this isn't an intellectual activity, it needs to be felt. The connection is made in the heart, not in the head.

 

[Martin]

Thanks. I wonder what others have to say about neti neti... like If a person after thinking long and hard on his true Self, finally arrives at a conclusion that he's not this, not this, then is it really enlightenment? Isn't neti neti simply analysing using the rational dualistic mind, when we should be actually transcending it.

I dont find neti-neti that useful, partly because it's a belief-based method ("I believe this is all an illusion"), and partly because it easily becomes an intellectual exercise.

 

[stvdv]

I'd agree but this isn't an intellectual activity, it needs to be felt. The connection is made in the heart, not in the head.

Of course, hence I used the word "Quest"

 

[stvdv]

Mind is much more than a bundle of thoughts. There are also perceptions, feelings and moods. Thoughts are really a sort of internal commentary, and the most superficial level of experience.
I would say that mind is the basis for experience, or the "space" in which experience occurs. So when the mind ceases, so does experience, for example in deep sleep, or under a general anaesthetic.

In Sanskrit they have very specific words for these Spiritual concepts. English and also Dutch language lack specific words, hence they attribute much more to mind then in the Sanskrit language, thereby making thing more confusing instead of giving clarity.

When thoughts subside when I enter the state of contemplation has nothing to do with feelings or experiencing. It even enhances those

 

[George-ananda]

How do you think this 'experience' or 'realization' happens beyond the mind? Who is it that experiences if not the mind? Can the witness brahman experience itself?

That is exactly the place where we have to acknowledge the mystery of Consciousness/Brahman. 'What it is?' is what we just can't get our minds behind.

 

[ajay0]

Experts on Advaita believe that the experience or realization of the oneness in samadhi, cannot be described later on by the sadhaka after he comes out of samadhi.

To the experts, the reason for this is that, the mind ceases to function in samadhi. It becomes mute. It becomes devoid of all thoughts.

They say, the distinction of the subject and object vanishes during this experience.
Their point is, if there remains no seeker/subject in samadhi, then who will describe the experience of oneness?

It is the Self, the true identity that emerges after the false dualistic ego vanishes in samadhi.

If samadhi is weak, the false dualistic ego emerges again.

In Nirvikalpa samadhi the obliteration of the false ego is complete resulting in Self-awareness at all times, and nondual perception.

I mean, if the sadhaka can actually 'REALIZE' during samadhi, then he SHOULD be able to describe his wonderful experience later on as well. And yet we don't find anyone describing it.

Because the Self is subtler than the intellect, speech cannot describe it. It is a matter of experiential understanding alone.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Because the Self is subtler than the intellect, speech cannot describe it. It is a matter of experiential understanding alone.

What about the mind? When it becomes mute in samadhi, does it (according to your opinion), registers the experience?

 

[shivsomashekhar]

What about the mind? When it becomes mute in samadhi, does it (according to your opinion), registers the experience?

I would once again ask you to pause and check on a couple of things -

1. What is the Sanskrit word that you are translating as experience? This is important because if you cannot find the word, your ideas are incorrect. Start with the small (but popular) Mandukya Upanishad.

2. Advaita is uncompromising duality. Who is the experiencer then and what is this new experience that is *yet* to happen?

Shankara says this numerous times - Knowledge liberates. I maintain that liberation is an intellectual thing and there are no additional steps beyond intellectual understanding. But most people here want the additional step, which they believe is some kind of an experience (transformation, bliss, thrills, etc). This is fine, but you should take the time to go back to the core texts and validate your expectations.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

@shivsomashekhar I haven't gone through any traditional advaita texts with the original sanskrit words yet. My limited knowledge on advaita comes mostly from online articles, videos and discussions.

EDIT : Wish i could read the mandukya now, but my current health conditions probably won't let me dive into a serious scrupulous study of the scripture. Perhaps you can inform me here whether there are any sanskrit words in advaita texts that speaks of a deep mystical experience or realization.

Your signature quotes Shankara's and Ramana's words saying things like, there's nothing to be known and no one is really seeking, because you are already that.

Does that mean one doesn't have to do anything and can live a materialistic life knowing one is already free?

Why then traditional advaita of Shankara prescribes attaining knowledge? What's the use of sravana, manana, and nididhyasana when one is already free?

You might say knowledge is needed for the removal of ignorance.

Well, if we go by the same traditional advaita teachings (especially the quote of Ramana from your signature), then i would say, who is it that needs knowledge to become enlightened, when all that exists is the one, non-dual Self?

Looking forward to what you have to say regarding this matter.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

Good questions, @Greg Levenski!

@shivsomashekhar
EDIT : Wish i could read the mandukya now, but my current health conditions probably won't let me dive into a serious scrupulous study of the scripture. Perhaps you can inform me here whether there are any sanskrit words in advaita texts that speaks of a deep mystical experience or realization.

You are asking for two things - a deep mystical experience and realization. For the latter, close terms are Jnana and Nididhyasana (both are intellectual). But for mystical experiences, you are unlikely to find anything in the main Upanishads and early Vedanta texts. You will have more luck finding mysticism in later texts on Advaita which merged extraneous material from Yoga (Samadhi), Tantra, etc.

Your signature quotes Shankara's and Ramana's words saying things like, there's nothing to be known and no one is really seeking, because you are already that.

Does that mean one doesn't have to do anything and can live a materialistic life knowing one is already free?

Free from what?

The solution to freedom from worldly problems is Sanyasa or renunciation. There is no mystical content here and it is also not tied to any specific spiritual belief.

Why then traditional advaita of Shankara prescribes attaining knowledge? What's the use of sravana, manana, and nididhyasana when one is already free?

Free from what?

Shankara's doctrine is for Sanyasis. It is not for people who live worldly lives, while also dabbling in spiritual matters as a side project. It is for Mumukshus - people who have a burning passion to know and have no interest in anything else.

You might say knowledge is needed for the removal of ignorance.

Well, if we go by the same traditional advaita teachings (especially the quote of Ramana from your signature), then i would say, who is it that needs knowledge to become enlightened, when all that exists is the one, non-dual Self?

It is for you. You are the only entity and yours is the only consciousness. But you have to see this for yourself without relying on anyone else's ideas. It is an intellectual thing. You do not need to spend years associating with live Gurus, reading a bunch of books, meditating, chanting, etc. You can see it now - at which point, you have clarity and your search ends.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

You are asking for two things - a deep mystical experience and realization. For the latter, close terms are Jnana and Nididhyasana (both are intellectual). But for mystical experiences, you are unlikely to find anything in the main Upanishads and early Vedanta texts. You will have more luck finding mysticism in later texts on Advaita which merged extraneous material from Yoga (Samadhi), Tantra, etc.

So, the term 'realization' in the school of Advaita is a completely intellectual thing then. Thanks for this information. And this same term 'realization' in schools of yoga and even in the ramakrishna society, means a totally different thing. A deep mystical experience in samadhi.
If only the Advaita articles i went thru, mentioned in their posts that certain terms have different meanings in each hindu school, then i would never have been confused in the first place. lol.
I think that's where enquiry, discussion and research comes in.
If everything's handed to us easily in our first attempt, without us giving any effort of extensive enquiry etc. then where's the fun in that.

EDIT:
Then again, if advaitins don't go after mystical samadhi experiences, then i wonder why advaitins speak of "nirvikalpa samadhi" in their books and articles?

Free from what?

By 'free' i meant, i'm already the infinite Brahman/Self that has no birth, bondage etc. as preached by Gaudapada in mandukya karika.

The solution to freedom from worldly problems is Sanyasa or renunciation. There is no mystical content here and it is also not tied to any specific spiritual belief.

Are there really any freedom from wordly problems?

Didn't Gaudapada say in Mandukya Karika "There is no dissolution, no birth, none in bondage, none aspiring for wisdom, no seeker of liberation and none liberated."?

It is for you. You are the only entity and yours is the only consciousness. But you have to see this for yourself without relying on anyone else's ideas. It is an intellectual thing. You do not need to spend years associating with live Gurus, reading a bunch of books, meditating, chanting, etc. You can see it now - at which point, you have clarity and your search ends.

EDIT:
So Advaita does admit that at a relative, empirical level, there is bondage and ignorance which needs to removed. If so, masters like Gaudapada, Shankara, Ramana etc. should have been explicit in their statements, like who should seek moksha (from the POV of which reality).
Statements like "no one needs liberation as they are already Brahman" can give a wrong idea to people who are new to spirituality and will instead make people adopt a materialistic lifestyle.

You said no books, gurus etc. are needed. How do you expect this intellectual realization to dawn upon us, without the help of books, scriptures or gurus?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I mean, if the sadhaka can actually 'REALIZE' during samadhi, then he SHOULD be able to describe his wonderful experience later on as well. And yet we don't find anyone describing it.

Well, I have been describing it all the time. To accept it or not is your choice.
Just this morning, around 5 am (I most of the time rise early) and less than an hour ago, I have found a label to what I believe - It is 'Abheda Advaita' (Non-duality without any distinction). I do not think any one has that 'copy-righted' (What Vallabha had was 'Purna Advaita').

So, is there a sanskrit term for this bigger, direct experience that you speak of, that comes after the preparatory samadhi exercise?

No, there is none (becoming one with the object of contempation - https://www.learnsanskrit.cc/translate?search=samAdhi&dir=au). The words 'jnana', 'moksha', 'nirvana', 'enlightenment', 'realization' can also be used for it.

But like @SalixIncendium do you also agree that the mind keeps functioning in samadhi (or during the direct experience that comes after samadhi as @Martin says) and registers the experience and yet fails to put it in words?

To keep on functioning is an inherent property of mind. And IMHO, the experience can be described accurately and succinctly.

Ultimately that is the gist of this thread; that Brahman is something we can't get our minds behind.

We have gotten to know a lot about it. We will know more about it in future (Quantum Mechanics).

That's also why Realized Souls don't serve us the Truth on a Gold Plate, we all have to figure it out ourselves. "No pain no gain" I think they say in English

The truth has been served on a golden plate. The problem is that people will not partake it. For most of my younger days I did not eat jack fruit dishes, but when I started eating it, I found that it was not so bad.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Are those the people who experience Samadhi or are those the people who rely on their bookish knowledge?

Nothing wrong with books. After all, we get Upanishads, SrimadbhagawadGita, Srimadbhagawadpurana and Rama Charit Manas (four of my favorites) in book form. We also learn through teachers ('what an ant taught me?' - 'save for the rainy days') and through experience. Even our teachers learnt through books.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Then again, if advaitins don't go after mystical samadhi experiences, then i wonder why advaitins speak of "nirvikalpa samadhi" in their books and articles?
Are there really any freedom from worldly problems?
So Advaita does admit that at a relative, empirical level, there is bondage and ignorance which needs to removed. If so, masters like Gaudapada, Shankara, Ramana etc. should have been explicit in their statements, like who should seek moksha (from the POV of which reality).
Statements like "no one needs liberation as they are already Brahman" can give a wrong idea to people who are new to spirituality and will instead make people adopt a materialistic lifestyle.

IMHO, there is nothing mystical about 'Nirvikalpa Smadhi'. It is total realization. Once attained, one can go about the worldly affairs without any attachment - 'Anasakti'. That is what BhagawadGita teaches us.
There are no worldly problems. They are but illusions. In Vyavaharika, one should do what is appropriate to it (that includes even a war).
Yes, of course. There are Paramarthika and Vyavaharika levels. Some people try to go beyond Vyavaharika. It is a personal choice and not an absolute necessity.
All things, living or non-living, are none other than Brahman. But those who try to understand this will need to labor to abandon their prejudices.

Shiva, experience is 'anubhava', 'anubhuti', etc. https://www.learnsanskrit.cc/translate?search=experience&dir=au

The solution to freedom from worldly problems is Sanyasa or renunciation.

The solution to freedom from worldly problems is 'Anasakti'.

"sukha-duḥkhe same kṛtvā, lābhālābhau jayājayau; tato yuddhāya yujyasva, naivaṁ pāpam avāpsyasi." BG 2.38
"tyaktvā karma-phalāsaṅgaṁ, nitya-tṛpto nirāśrayaḥ; karmaṇy abhipravṛtto~pi, naiva kiñcit karoti saḥ." BG 4.20