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Seeking to Understand Advaita

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I sort of understand Advaita philosophy but there are some things that I don't quite have a grasp on.
I'm putting this in SFD because it will probably become a debate immediately.

Firstly, I've seen it said (including just now which is why I got the idea to make this thread) that the material universe is 'unreal'. Or maybe it is that all things manifest are 'unreal'. Or anything other than the Self is 'unreal' (Maya).

What exactly is meant by 'unreal'?
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
I wrote a post on this topic yesterday, so I am copying that post here to save me from writing another one:

Materialism is basically Advaita in reverse: Advaita denies the real existence of matter, considering it to be illusory and states that everything is simply consciousness. No kind of matter, whether it it be physical or qualia exist. The logic for this is that while consciousness cannot be reduced to matter, matter can be reduced to consciousness through the critique of naam-rupa, meaning name and form. Similar to the linguistic-constructivists theory of reality. Whatever we call matter only has linguistic conceptual categories for its existence, not ontological realities, for example distinctions of the body like head, torso, feet, toes only exist in language, but not in the body itself. Extended further: distinctions like here and there, up and down, this and that, inner and outer again only have a linguistic existence. A classical example in Advaita is to ask what is the common substance of a gold necklace, a gold ring and a gold statue? The answer is gold of course, necklace, ring and statue are just names for different forms of gold. Likewise, the substratum of reality of name and form is the undifferentiated field of consciousness. This applies equally to atoms, subatomic particles, quarks etc, hence why Neil Bohr said their existence is only insofar as we are conscious of them.

Thus through the critique of naam-rupa Advaita attempts to logically prove that the only actual real substance is consciousness. This entire reality emanates from and dissolves into consciousness. On the hand, the reverse, of reducing consciousness to matter is logically impossible and are held by us Advaitins to be illogical. Scientists will eventually have to concede that reality is a consciousness field(which exists across a continuum of consciousness states: waking, dreaming and sleep) and not a material field, in the same way they had to concede the Earth orbits the sun and not vis versa. The hard problem of consciousness is the impossible problem.
 
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Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
I've been planning a thread clarifying advaita for sometime, I'll try to start it in the next few days and do it in series. I'm behind in my "to-do" posts though. SageTree has already sent me a few letter bombs on account of still, after a month, not posting a Buddhism/Hinduism thread. :p
 

Shântoham

Vedantin
I sort of understand Advaita philosophy but there are some things that I don't quite have a grasp on.
I'm putting this in SFD because it will probably become a debate immediately.

Firstly, I've seen it said (including just now which is why I got the idea to make this thread) that the material universe is 'unreal'. Or maybe it is that all things manifest are 'unreal'. Or anything other than the Self is 'unreal' (Maya).

What exactly is meant by 'unreal'?

Namaskāram

The word illusion, or unreal is often used as an equivalent of Māyā; but illusion is not the right equivalent. As far as I know, there is no equivalent word for Māyā in the English language.
We can say that Māyā is the creative power of Īśvara. Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (4.10) says:

māyāṃ tu prakṛtiṃ vidyān māyinaṃ tu maheśvaraṃ |
tasyāvayavabhūtais tu vyāptaṃ sarvaṃ idaṃ jagat ||

Know Prakṛti to be Māyā. And know Maheśvara to be the Lord of Māyā. The whole universe is the body of Maheśvara.

Bhagavadgītā 7.14 can be used for further reference. Tattvabodhaḥ says:

Brahmāśrayā sattvarajastamoguṇātmikā māyāsti

Māyā – which is of the nature of Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas – exists – being dependent on Brahman for its existence.

If you check my signature you’ll see that Śrī Śaṅkarācārya defines that the most permanent thing is Brahman, and the Jagat (universe) is Mithyā.
Here, the word Mithyā does not mean “illusion”, “false”, or “unreal” as it does in many modern Indian languages. It is a word that is used to point out the status of any object with respect to its cause. For example, a Vyāsa-Pīṭha (book-stand) is essentially wood. Before it existed, there was wood, after it is destroyed, wood will remain, and even now when the Vyāsa-Pīṭha is there, it is nothing but wood.
Does this mean that the Vyāsa-Pīṭha is an illusion? No, because it has a form and we can use it in a way in which we cannot use other forms of wood. But its existence is entirely dependent on wood, which is its cause and is more real than it. The wood is Satya, and it is more Nitya than the Vyāsa-Pīṭha. Here, the cause of everything, which is more Nitya than everything, is given the name Brahman.
Nitya-Anitya-Vastu-Viveka is a general awareness of the fact that the universe is Anitya, and that there is a Nitya-Vastu that we are seeking.

In fact, we are constantly performing a discrimination between what is Nitya and Anitya in our lives. If offered a choice between a high-paying but unsteady job, and a moderately paying, steady job, most of us would prefer steady security over an uncertain job. We always want what is more permanent in life.

Pranāms
 

iamfact

Eclectic Pantheist
I sort of understand Advaita philosophy but there are some things that I don't quite have a grasp on.
I'm putting this in SFD because it will probably become a debate immediately.

Firstly, I've seen it said (including just now which is why I got the idea to make this thread) that the material universe is 'unreal'. Or maybe it is that all things manifest are 'unreal'. Or anything other than the Self is 'unreal' (Maya).

What exactly is meant by 'unreal'?

As you're probably well aware, there are different views within Advaita itself. Below is my description of Advaita, which is slightly different from the Advaita Vedanta taught by traditional Advaita Gurus:

First I need to start with the point that Nirguna Brahman is attributeless and non-dual. We cannot speak of it in languages, because languages can only be spoken in terms of duality, so the Brahman mentioned hereafter isn't the real Brahman. It is the closest you can get to describing Nirguna Brahman in dualistic languages.

Now to answer your question:

Contrary to what you have heard, the universe is real because it is Brahman and Brahman is real. (Technically Brahman is beyond the real and the unreal, and its both, but when we're speaking in dualistic languages, we just use "real".) However, because of avidyā (ignorance), we fall under the influence of māyā (illusion) and we assume an identity to the universe independent of Brahman and that identity is mithyā (unreal). The way I approach it, it isn't that the universe is non-existent but the illusion that the universe is something other than Brahman is unreal.

Remember, in my view: avidyā gives rise to māyā which makes it seem like the universe is separate from Brahman and that is mithyā. In my view māyā does not exist outside of the ignorant mind.
 
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Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
IMHO, the best definition for maya is "not this" - neti is comparable.

This is not the goal, this is not the absolute reality.
 

Maya3

Well-Known Member
Shântoham;3056919 said:
Namaskāram

The word illusion, or unreal is often used as an equivalent of Māyā; but illusion is not the right equivalent. As far as I know, there is no equivalent word for Māyā in the English language.
We can say that Māyā is the creative power of Īśvara. Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (4.10) says:

māyāṃ tu prakṛtiṃ vidyān māyinaṃ tu maheśvaraṃ |
tasyāvayavabhūtais tu vyāptaṃ sarvaṃ idaṃ jagat ||

Know Prakṛti to be Māyā. And know Maheśvara to be the Lord of Māyā. The whole universe is the body of Maheśvara.

Bhagavadgītā 7.14 can be used for further reference. Tattvabodhaḥ says:

Brahmāśrayā sattvarajastamoguṇātmikā māyāsti

Māyā – which is of the nature of Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas – exists – being dependent on Brahman for its existence.

If you check my signature you’ll see that Śrī Śaṅkarācārya defines that the most permanent thing is Brahman, and the Jagat (universe) is Mithyā.
Here, the word Mithyā does not mean “illusion”, “false”, or “unreal” as it does in many modern Indian languages. It is a word that is used to point out the status of any object with respect to its cause. For example, a Vyāsa-Pīṭha (book-stand) is essentially wood. Before it existed, there was wood, after it is destroyed, wood will remain, and even now when the Vyāsa-Pīṭha is there, it is nothing but wood.
Does this mean that the Vyāsa-Pīṭha is an illusion? No, because it has a form and we can use it in a way in which we cannot use other forms of wood. But its existence is entirely dependent on wood, which is its cause and is more real than it. The wood is Satya, and it is more Nitya than the Vyāsa-Pīṭha. Here, the cause of everything, which is more Nitya than everything, is given the name Brahman.
Nitya-Anitya-Vastu-Viveka is a general awareness of the fact that the universe is Anitya, and that there is a Nitya-Vastu that we are seeking.

In fact, we are constantly performing a discrimination between what is Nitya and Anitya in our lives. If offered a choice between a high-paying but unsteady job, and a moderately paying, steady job, most of us would prefer steady security over an uncertain job. We always want what is more permanent in life.

Pranāms

This is a good explanation of it, it confirms my thoughts that Maya is not unreal, Maya is what makes us think that the world come in different shapes, species, objects etc when it's all the same. And yes Ishvaras creative power makes for all the diversity.

What makes Maya "unreal" or "illusion" is that we think of the bracelet as a bracelet instead of part of Gold.

Maya
 

iamfact

Eclectic Pantheist
What's the difference between maya and mithya? Is there any, or are they used interchangeably?

Mithyā means "unreal"
Māyā means "illusion"

That which we see under the influence of māyā is mithyā. These two words can be used interchangeably although they aren't literal synonyms. In the end, it's all just semantics, and semantics is unimportant with regards to Nirguna Brahman which is beyond names, forms, thoughts and the senses.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Maya does have meaning of illusoriness - roughly. Combine "Illusion" with "projection," as a reflection in water, and we might come much closer to the native meaning.

Maya has several etymologies. One is ma = not, ya = that. For example, Uma-Parvati's name is related. Another is as related to measure (viz. vishvakarma, the holder of creative power), and another as related to exchange (viz. transactional reality).

The Mahabharata may provide good clues as to the understanding of maya. One of the first, and most important, ceremonies when the Pandavas had Indraprastha (itself a significant name, as related to Vishvakarman as Prajapati and Ishvara as the recipient of his solar power) was the measuring out of the grounds. And Mayasura famously constructed the Mayasabh - the palace of illusions.

My understanding differs slightly from Shantoham-ji, as I consider illusion to be a viable translation/concept of maya, albeit incomplete, and considerably more nuanced in description. Maya is just the label, one must understand what exactly it describes in the philosophical context of advaita. I have no doubt however that Shantoham-ji has much mastery of this understanding, and our not seeing eye-to-eye on this is merely semantical.


The idea could be framed in Western terms through the lens of physics, particularly "digital" and "informational" physics - that matter and energy, time and space, are essentially programmed by information and thus projected/simulated. They're provisionally real. You stub your toe and it really hurts. From beyond the simulation, however...

Digital physics is (not yet) a consensus view, we can still view it as a "projection" of more basal forces in terms of quantum mechanics / string theory - especially M-theory. Perhaps we can see it as the contortion of emptiness/space.

Mithya's meaning is some combination of "false" and "impermanent" - remember that many theories of truth require something to remain true, to be unsubject to conditional vagueries - risings and dissipations which qualify or disqualify. Mithya is perhaps the chief characteristic of this projection.

Perhaps "dreamlike" is as good a definition as any. The dream is real enough - it is a real experience - to the experiencer, but only for a little while, and upon waking, it is unreal or maybe better: less-real and recedes in 'ontological priority.'
 
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Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
I think perhaps "asat" may be closer to unreal - or at least, non-existent. Non-existence is also included within Brahman's reality, so maybe ajneya is even closer - though it could also be used as a majestic title for Brahman's incomprehensibility to the finite mnid.
 

Shântoham

Vedantin
Namaskāram

Māyā is Īśvara’s Upādhiḥ which accounts for Mithyā creation.

Pranāms
 

Maya3

Well-Known Member
I always think of The Matrix, suddenly when Nehru uses his third eye (he lost his two other ones) he sees that everything is just zeros running in green up and down and everywhere.
Everything is still there, but it is made of these green zeros. The illusion is that we don't see the zeros.


Maya
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Yeah, and the action sequences between him and Agent Jinnah are awesome. :p (Please don't take this friendly joke as lack of appreciate for your excellent post).
 
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Maya3

Well-Known Member
Yeah, and the action sequences between him and Agent Jinnah are awesome. :p (Please don't take this friendly joke as lack of appreciate for your excellent post).

Thank you.
I love the Matrix, I should see it again, it's been a while.

Maya
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
The thought you expressed echoes very much Chandogya 6.3.2:

sarvaṃ ca nāmarūpādi sadātmanaiva satyaṃ vikārajātaṃ svatastu anṛtameva

All names and forms are real when seen with the Sat (Brahman) but false when seen independently of Brahman.

Courtesy Wikipedia
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Namaste,

I too also do not agree with Shantoham's interpretation of Advaita, because his interpretation depends on redefining the word maya to not mean illusory or unreal, when in fact the word does mean illusory or unreal. This is clear in the famous Advaita mahavakya: brahma satya jagan mithya. Here mithya is used as the opposite of satya and satya means truth, real, existent, therefore mithya being the inverse means untrue, unreal and not-existent.

If we start changing the meaning of the words to reinterpret Vedanta(Upanishads) we are basically doing word-forgery and distorting what they originally say. Now, I may accept the Upanishads are open to interpretation due to their symbolic language, Advaita being a very specific philosophy of non-duality is not open to dualistic interpretations. The position of Advaita is made clear in all primary texts of Advaita.

Only Brahman or Atman are real, both terms used interchangeably to mean the same substance from different perspectives; Brahman being the macrocosm and Atman being the microcosm. Atman literally means the inner-being of all and Brahman is the being of all. The reason for why different words are used is because Atman is describing being from the perspective of a conscious self-reflective organism, who calls their inner most being 'atman' and refers to the being of the whole word as 'brahman' Atman is more intimate and directly experienced by a subject, but they cannot directly experience the being of the world, say a rock, a tree, a river(in ordinary perception). It is for this reason there is an apparent distinction between matter and consciousness, hence substance dualist philosophies like Samkhya which draw a sharp divide between matter and consciousness and resolve them into different ultimate substances.

Advaita goes a step beyond Samkhya. In fact it would be fair to say Advaita is simply the next logical step after Samkhya, it starts where Samkhya ends. Samkhya leaves us with a problematic vision of reality where we have two absolute and infinite substances matter and consciousness, without any explanation for how they interact with one another, why does one have the potential for change and why does the other not change? Why is one plural and the other singular? One of the solutions offered for this draws from the gaps in knowledge fallacy that we must artificially posit a third substance, ishvara, as superintendent over both matter and consciousness - but this is not rational, for it requires a leap of faith. Advaita rejects this theory of ishvara as a superintendent, and an official refutation of this is given in the Brahma Sutras of Badaryana in the section on refutation of other schools and also covered in the bhashaya of Shankara to it.

Advaita resolves the Samkhya problems through not positing any further entities but through the critique of naam-rupa it is found that out of the two Samkhya substances of matter and consciousness, matter actually has no real substance, but only apparent substance. It is dependent on consciousness for its substance, but not in the way that consciousness is like its fundamental cause like an apple seed is the fundamental cause of an apple tree, but in the way a reflection is dependent on the object it is reflected from, but the object is not really its fundamental cause. In fact the fundamental cause of a reflection isn't even the mirror it is being seen in. The fundamental cause of the reflection is perception. It is a trick of perception that makes it seem like to us there is a reflection there. As in the case of the mirage. Similarly, Advaita traces the fundamental cause of the entire world not to consciousness, but to advidya ignorant perception. The fact I see any world at all is due to a trick of perception and my basic ignorance. Through language I differentiate all forms in a singular field of awareness and differentiate each of these forms through language and the possibility for division is infinite. As we can see with something simple as the object snow, in Eskimo cultures the one object snow can be turned into dozens or hundreds of seemingly different types simply based on the adjunct(upadhi) like stormy snow, falling snow, watery snow, vapoury snow. So through language we divide reality into many arbitrary divisions based on how we perceive its behaviour - and this can be seen in every field of knowledge. In astronomy: universe, galaxy, nebula, suns, stars, planets, moons, asteroids; in biology; DNA, RNA, chromosomes, cells, organs, muscle, tissue, marrow, skeleton; in physics: forces, photons, quarks, electrons, protons, anti-electrons, anti-protons, neutrons and atoms; in chemistry: atoms, molecules, organic and inorganic matter, acids, alkalis; In psychology; personality, memory, thoughts, feelings, sensations, states of consciousness etc etc etc. This is why every taxonomy we list has a problem of definition. It is arbitrary, based on dividing forms into names.

Advaita traces all of our reality down to its actual main source of Maya, the source of naam-rupa. Maya is neither real or unreal, it is like a field(hence why it is also called kshestra in Sanskrit) which emanates from consciousness. It is also like a dreaming reality that is bubbling out from consciousness, hence why in the Sanskrit tradition reality is also described as a dream of some supreme consciousnes(Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva) Its nature is inexplicable and undefinable. It is mysterious. However, what is definitely unreal according to Advaita, is the products of Maya, which are basically all just maya with a different upadhi, just like the same snow becomes dozens and hundreds through different upadhis. The very first product of Maya is Mahat(the great principle) and because Mahat is the closest to the actual source, it is also called Ishvara. It has the closest nature to consciousness, but it is not actually conscious, it is inert, it is material. But in like manner neither are you Jiva, conscious, you too are inert matter. Both ishvara and jiva are equally inert, having only reflected consciousness, and seeming to behave as if they are conscious.

Advaita considers Maya to be great and amazing power and inexplicable. Shakta's even worship this Maya, because in some or way or another this maya is a direct route to God.
However, worshiping Maya is actually forbidden in Vedanta. The Upanishads and even the Gita state not to worship the unmanifest nature, otherwise we pass from death to death. This is why the character Krishna says "Worship me alone" Here 'me' refers to the Atman, the actual real substance that Maya depends on. Hence why in Advaita while showing our utmost respect to this great power called Maya, we do not worship it, in the same one would not worship a tornado or an earthquake, but rather respect and stand in awe of them. Advaita worships the ONE only existent reality, that this entire world we see is an appearance of the Atman: We do this through constant remembrance of the Self, constant contemplation on the Self, inquiry and analysis of the Self and meditation on the Self.

It is tricky to negotiate the relationship between us illusory jivatmas with the real Atman, because there is an apparent dualism between us and Atman. It is easy to misinterpret statements like aham brahmasmi into egocentric philosophies where we jivas literally start to think ourselves as god/s. Hence the statement must be made with the understanding of Advaita philosophy. We are not saying I the jivatman who is the empirical self is the supreme ONE being, but we are saying that I the Atman the transcendental Self am the supreme ONE being. Hence in our statements we need to employ a slight dualistic language, "Oh great Lord, the Self of all beings, you are the source of me, the inner-dweller, lead me to light" The meaning of the words is not in the words themselves, but in the understanding of the words. This is why Shankara could actually worship Rama, Shiva, Krishna, for he did not really worship them as separate god/s, but with the understanding they are the Self.
 
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Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
In a nutshell, for those who don't like reading long posts. Here are some of the key principles of Advaita which diffentiate it from other philosophies like Samkhya, Buddhism and theistic philosophies like creationism(personal creator god/s)

1) Reality is an illusion. There never has really been any kind of creation. The creation is just our ignorance perception of it created through our artificial division of it through language via the agency of mind and senses which artificially split it into arbitrary categories. There only is one eternal reality which is unchanging, the absolute being of all.
2) There is only one conscious principle whose intrinsic nature is Sat, chit and Ananda, truth, existence, consciousness,wisdom and bliss. There is no such thing as variation in truth, existence etc or degrees of consciousness, degrees of existence or degrees of bliss. Rather, the variations we do perceive is simply how much of the Self we are revealing and this depends on the number of upadhis. When the upadhis are less we experience more of the real nature of Self i.e., we are more blissful, wiser, loving and compassionate. But we are not conscious ourselves, we are actually a material product reflecting consciousness.
3) Only the Self is worthy of worship. Advaitins worship the Self through constant, remembrance of the Self, contemplation on the Self, inquiry and analysis of the Self and meditation on the Self. The attitude of complete surrender to the Self is required.
But there should not be any of worship of separate god/s. If theistic language is employed it should be done so with the understanding that it is referring to the Self. Advaita does not accept the real existence of god/s, but does not deny that god/s exist as a part of our empirical reality. In this sense god/s are as real as chairs and tables.
 
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iamfact

Eclectic Pantheist
2) There is only one conscious principle whose intrinsic nature is Sat, chit and Ananda, truth, existence, consciousness,wisdom and bliss.

This is the traditional view of Advaita Vedānta and one of the few points where I diverge. I've never really understood how traditional Advaitins claim that nirguna brahman is of the nature of sacchidānanda when nirguna brahman itself is beyond words, attributes and comprehension. Aren't sat, chit and ānanda attributes with dualistic opposites asat, achit, and du:kha?

Since brahman is non-dual and languages are dualistic by nature, I always figured sachidānanda as being the way to explain brahman using dualistic languages. However, recently, I talked to some Advaitins with gurus and they told me that in the way they're taught, nirguna brahman is of the nature of sachidānanda. :confused:

How does that work?
 
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