Seeking answers: The resurrection

[Horrorble]

Does Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 contradict a physical resurrection?

Looking for meanings for this passage from both Jews and Christians! Thanks!

 

[arcanum]

Does Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 contradict a physical resurrection?

Looking for meanings for this passage from both Jews and Christians! Thanks!

What people don't realize is many books in the OT, like Ecclesiastes, were written at a time when the Jews didn't have a belief in an afterlife. It was after the Babylonian captivity that you had some Jewish groups believing in the afterlife.

 

[Horrorble]

What people don't realize is many books in the OT, like Ecclesiastes, were written at a time when the Jews didn't have a belief in an afterlife. It was after the Babylonian captivity that you had some Jewish groups believing in the afterlife.

Thank you, this is helpful

 

[Horrorble]

No one else would like to add anything!?

 

[Tarheeler]

No one else would like to add anything!?

Not really sure what you're looking for. Even today Judaism is vague on the afterlife; most of us believe in the "World to Come", but there are differing ideas of what entails. As for the passage from Ecclesiastes, we try not to take snippets of verse out of context. You have to read the Book and take what is said within the context of the whole.

Simply put, we don't know what will happen when we die, and we need to live life with meaning.

 

[Horrorble]

Not really sure what you're looking for. Even today Judaism is vague on the afterlife; most of us believe in the "World to Come", but there are differing ideas of what entails. As for the passage from Ecclesiastes, we try not to take snippets of verse out of context. You have to read the Book and take what is said within the context of the whole.

Simply put, we don't know what will happen when we die, and we need to live life with meaning.

I asked does it contradict a physical resurrection, as in the dead will not be resurrected on earth since they will not live "under the sun" again?
What is your understanding of it?
thanks

 

[Tarheeler]

I asked does it contradict a physical resurrection, as in the dead will not be resurrected on earth since they will not live "under the sun" again?
What is your understanding of it?
thanks

I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not there will be a physical resurrection.

 

[Horrorble]

I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not there will be a physical resurrection.

So what does it mean?

 

[Tarheeler]

So what does it mean?

The Book as whole:

Simply put, we don't know what will happen when we die, and we need to live life with meaning.

 

[Horrorble]

The Book as whole:

I kind of got the living life with meaning part, but when I read chapter 9 it seems like it is trying to tell me "you only live once" so enjoy life. I can not read Hebrew though so may come across differently in English.

 

[Tarheeler]

I kind of got the living life with meaning part, but when I read chapter 9 it seems like it is trying to tell me "you only live once" so enjoy life. I can not read Hebrew though so may come across differently in English.

Pretty much the same thing to me.
We're commanded to see the blessings in life and to find enjoyment in living.

 

[Jainarayan]

Does Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 contradict a physical resurrection?

Looking for meanings for this passage from both Jews and Christians! Thanks!

How about from a non-Jew or non-Christian? Much of Ecclesiastes smacks of eastern philosophy. It sounds a lot like moksha or nirvana (which are not reward):

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

 

[nazz]

Does Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 contradict a physical resurrection?

Looking for meanings for this passage from both Jews and Christians! Thanks!

I think the bible contains conflicting ideas in the issue of an afterlife.

 

[Caladan]

Does Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 contradict a physical resurrection?

Looking for meanings for this passage from both Jews and Christians! Thanks!

In Judaism, physical resurrection in the literal sense has not been a dominate perspective. Many Jewish sages through the centuries considered the most vivid descriptions of the resurrection (Book of Ezekiel) to be literary potent metaphors about the spiritual revival of the Jewish People, after their land was made desolate, and they were exiled in Babylonia. Scattered, and struggling to preserve their heritage in a foreign land. The resurrection is the promise of things to come, about their return and about restoring their spirit, their spiritual heritage.

As for the Ecclesiastes, it stands very distinctly in Biblical literature. It is like Hebrew Zen as far as I'm concerned. Or a direct pointing at reality and life, if you will. In this case, it reflects a repeating Biblical perspective about death. The Hebrew Bible says very little about an afterlife. In the Bible what expects the living after they die is commonly the grave.

 

[Horrorble]

In Judaism, physical resurrection in the literal sense has not been a dominate perspective. Many Jewish sages through the centuries considered the most vivid descriptions of the resurrection (Book of Ezekiel) to be literary potent metaphors about the spiritual revival of the Jewish People, after their land was made desolate, and they were exiled in Babylonia. Scattered, and struggling to preserve their heritage in a foreign land. The resurrection is the promise of things to come, about their return and about restoring their spirit, their spiritual heritage.

As for the Ecclesiastes, it stands very distinctly in Biblical literature. It is like Hebrew Zen as far as I'm concerned. Or a direct pointing at reality and life, if you will. In this case, it reflects a repeating Biblical perspective about death. The Hebrew Bible says very little about an afterlife. In the Bible what expects the living after they die is commonly the grave.

Thanks! I was always taught a literal resurrection of the dead on earth. Now that I am starting to read things for myself I am seeming that it is not all that biblical and the afterlife is not clear cut in the Hebrew scriptures, like I was taught.

 

[Horrorble]

I think the bible contains conflicting ideas in the issue of an afterlife.

I would say there is quite a lot of conflict between the Hebrew scriptures and the Christian scriptures.
That is fine though, I was just looking for a discussion about it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What people don't realize is many books in the OT, like Ecclesiastes, were written at a time when the Jews didn't have a belief in an afterlife. It was after the Babylonian captivity that you had some Jewish groups believing in the afterlife.

I infer from this a claim that Qohelet is pre-exilic, but what you don't seem to realize is:

Most commentators admit that knowing the date of Ecclesiastes with any certainty is impossible with the current available evidence, though a post-exilic date is the current consensus position among critical scholars. Many evangelical scholars argue a pre-exilic date, up to and including the time of Solomon, but this view has not gained wide acceptance among critical scholars. On linguistic grounds (the presence of Persian loan-words) the book points to a date no earlier than about 450 BC, while the latest possible date for its composition is 180 BC, when another Jewish writer, Ben Sira, quotes from it. Yet scholars disagree whether Ecclesiastes belongs to the Persian or the Hellenistic periods. The dispute revolves around the degree of Hellenization (influence of Greek culture and thought) present in the book. Scholars arguing for a Persian date (c. 450-330 BC) hold that there is a complete lack of Greek influence in the book; those who argue for a Hellenistic date (c. 330-180 BC) argue that it shows internal evidence of Greek thought and social setting. [source]

Alter, in his preface to Qohelet found in The Wisdom Books, notes:

It has long been recognized that this is one of the later books of the Hebrew Bible. Some scholars have been tempted to see in it an influence of Greek philosophy, but C. L. Seow argues convincingly on linguistic grounds that the text was probably written a few decades before the conquest of Palestine by Alexander the Great in 333 BCE. There are two Persian loan-words and certain turns of language that belong to the late Persian period but no Greek loan-words. ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As for the Ecclesiastes, it stands very distinctly in Biblical literature.

More specifically, it stands very distinctly in Biblical Wisdom literature.

In the Bible what expects the living after they die is commonly the grave.

What is expected is life as a shade in sheol.

 

[Caladan]

More specifically, it stands very distinctly in Biblical Wisdom literature.

If you want to get technical, then it stands very distinctly in Biblical Wisdom literature, in the spirit of Near Eastern fictional autobiography. But that was not my point. To me (to me, as can be seen typed in my post above), Ecclesiastes is distinct in the Bible not only in term of general literary genre, but in the spirit of its content which contrasts with other Wisdom literature and Biblical literature in the challenges it poses to the desire to gain and expand one's knowledge. Instead it offers a sober look at reality.

What is expected is life as a shade in sheol.

Some Biblical passages may imply similarities to the Greek concept of Hades (or Mesopotamian eschatology). But rarely does the Bible expand on this generally vague state. In rare occasions spirits are summoned, such as Samuel being called by the Witch of Endor. However, the elaboration about a Biblical afterlife is scarce, compared to the way the afterlife (and the resurrection of the dead) are harnessed in the New Testament.