Secular Power is a blessing to humanity, not some sort of divine chastisement

[danieldemol]

So it looks to me like a certain person who shall not be named is using the cover of a DIR to bash secularism.

I decided to counter that by proposing the polar opposite statement in Religious Debates.

Secular Power is a blessing to humanity, not some sort of divine chastisement.

Why? Because it gives humans the power to rule themselves compassionately and in my opinion sociopaths do not constitute the majority of human beings.

 

[McBell]

What is "secular power" and why is it deemed more powerful that "god"?

 

[danieldemol]

What is "secular power" and why is it deemed more powerful that "god"?

Secular power is government in which church and state are seperate as opposed to a theocratic power.

I did not deem it more powerful than God if that’s what you meant.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What is "secular power" and why is it deemed more powerful that "god"?

Good, we are in debates. So here we go. If you know how to look and check for both objectivity and subjectivity you know that we are in a world with limited cognitive relativism. What if a god wanted that? This god is okay with limited cognitive relativism and that is how the world works, because that god has created the world that way. Then it seems to follow that the secular power is better and yet with god.

Stop playing with "god". I can do that too. This "god" of mine is no different your "god". You subjectively construct a negative and I subjectively construct a positive. I know that is the case for both of us, because I know that we are apparently playing limited cognitive relativism. So what do you know?

 

[firedragon]

So it looks to me like a certain person who shall not be named is using the cover of a DIR to bash secularism.

I decided to counter that by proposing the polar opposite statement in Religious Debates.

Secular Power is a blessing to humanity, not some sort of divine chastisement.

Why? Because it gives humans the power to rule themselves compassionately and in my opinion sociopaths do not constitute the majority of human beings.

We dont know that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We dont know that.

No, you are right. Apparently we Know nothing. I know that, I am a skeptic. So tell me, how you do the everyday world in practice and we can compare.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[firedragon]

No, you are right. Apparently we Know nothing. I know that, I am a skeptic. So tell me, how you do the everyday world in practice and we can compare.

Regards
Mikkel

We know somethings.

e.g. We know that both of us are able to use the English language.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We know somethings.

e.g. We know that both of us are able to use the English language.

Yes, under the shared assumption that universe is fair and knowable as it appears to us. But we don't Know apparently.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, under the shared assumption that universe is fair and knowable as it appears to us. But we don't Know apparently.

Apparently.

 

[McBell]

Secular power is government in which church and state are seperate as opposed to a theocratic power.

I did not deem it more powerful than God if that’s what you meant.

No, you didn't.
However, based upon the posts of several theists, they certainly do fear it more powerful than their god.

 

[Regiomontanus]

So it looks to me like a certain person who shall not be named is using the cover of a DIR to bash secularism.

I decided to counter that by proposing the polar opposite statement in Religious Debates.

Secular Power is a blessing to humanity, not some sort of divine chastisement.

Why? Because it gives humans the power to rule themselves compassionately and in my opinion sociopaths do not constitute the majority of human beings.

A blessing? Examples?

 

[sun rise]

Secular Power is a blessing to humanity, not some sort of divine chastisement.

I agree. With a theocratic government all debates and differences end with the all powerful state imposing its view on everyone.

Another way to frame this is: would Protestants who want a theocracy be happy in a Catholic state? A Jewish one? A Muslim state?

Of course not. And that applies to all other religions as well.

And that's why the state should not impose a religion. Rather the laws of the state should reflect the common principles of all religions and secular humanists: "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, you didn't.
However, based upon the posts of several theists, they certainly do fear it more powerful than their god.

Yes, and then what? What follows form that?

 

[sojourner]

We dont know that.

I think we have a fairly reasonable certainty. In countries that are “theocracies,” or in which religion and government are bed partners, we see the worst instances of systemic violence against humanity and nature. Muslim nations are among the worst these days, but in times past Christian colonialism was rife with systemic violence. Form a Xtian theological perspective, we have taken the theological construct of having dominion over creation and twisted and abused it to wipe out species and place the planet in jeopardy.

 

[danieldemol]

We dont know that.

You haven’t been very specific about which part of my post you are saying we don’t know about.

I’m going to assume it was the part about most people not being sociopaths.

I think if most people where sociopaths then most democracies would reflect that and compassion would go out the window.

However it seems to me like in theocracy compassion for the non-believer is the first thing to go out the window.

 

[CG Didymus]

So it looks to me like a certain person who shall not be named is using the cover of a DIR to bash secularism.

I decided to counter that by proposing the polar opposite statement in Religious Debates.

Secular Power is a blessing to humanity, not some sort of divine chastisement.

Why? Because it gives humans the power to rule themselves compassionately and in my opinion sociopaths do not constitute the majority of human beings.

I think it has been a blessing to get religious leaders out of power over people. The down side is the lowest common denominator wins out. So, especially for religious people, society is going downhill.

But many religious were "given" supposedly by God with laws and rules that were meant for all the people in that religion to follow. So what happens when a religion is able to control a whole empire or nation? As far as I can tell there was all kinds of abuses of power.

So now, since you are a Baha'i, we got the same situation all over again. Are we going to give the power to a religion to rule over us? I think even if the Baha'i were ever to get a majority, there would be a lot of opposition to them imposing their laws. Baha'is here on the forum say that is not their intent. That the Baha'i laws are only for Baha'is. But they sure sound like God wants them to be applied to the whole world. So would Baha'is be okay with having to continue living in a world where they live under their laws from God and having to obey secular laws?

 

[firedragon]

However it seems to me like in theocracy compassion for the non-believer is the first thing to go out the window.

Which theocracy of which particular period? You are being too general as if "forever". And you are getting into history, not theology. Thats alright, but you should make the distinction and understand the distinction.

 

[firedragon]

I think we have a fairly reasonable certainty. In countries that are “theocracies,” or in which religion and government are bed partners, we see the worst instances of systemic violence against humanity and nature. Muslim nations are among the worst these days, but in times past Christian colonialism was rife with systemic violence. Form a Xtian theological perspective, we have taken the theological construct of having dominion over creation and twisted and abused it to wipe out species and place the planet in jeopardy.

That kind of explanation can be done to slam anything.

 

[sojourner]

That kind of explanation can be done to slam anything.

My history prof once said: “The moment a nation’s policies become based in religion, that nation becomes insufferable.” And this was a Christian college, in the top 10 nationally in academics.

 

[firedragon]

My history prof once said: “The moment a nation’s policies become based in religion, that nation becomes insufferable.” And this was a Christian college, in the top 10 nationally in academics.

Great.