Searching for truth.

[Vinayaka]

Certainly inner wisdom is a source but I wonder if some people go astray by not being spiritually developed enough to trust their inner wisdom or they confuse it with their thoughts.

I asked my Guru this question once upon a time, but more importantly how to tell the difference. FWIW, the reply was a simple ... "inner wisdom comes unbidden" . So it's not the end of circular thinking, but more an Ah Ha! moment out of nowhere. Clearly not an intellectual process, and as you say, you have to ready to catch it, yet not looking for it.

 

[George-ananda]

I asked my Guru this question once upon a time, but more importantly how to tell the difference. FWIW, the reply was a simple ... "inner wisdom comes unbidden" . So it's not the end of circular thinking, but more an Ah Ha! moment out of nowhere. Clearly not an intellectual process, and as you say, you have to ready to catch it, yet not looking for it.

That’s good but the difference between ‘bidden’ and ‘unbidden’ is not always so clear-cut.

 

[Windwalker]

The white guilt industrial complex I spoke of would
be an example of "near" enemy.

Sure, yes. I get that.

Love without fear?

I said I would not quote Mom again, but here I go.

I have been in fear, imminent fear for my life.

Mom knows about that. But-

She told me "you will never know what fear
really is, until your child is in danger."

As with anything I say like that, it does take some clarification sometimes. No, I'd don't mean never experiencing the natural fears that you should feel when there is a real and immediate threat. That is completely nature, and healthy since it saves our lives.

The kind of fear I am talking about it the basic fear condition of the human being, as an evolved primate with a really big brain, we extend that basic primal instinct of fear into everything, all manner of threats perceived, not the least of which are things that contribute to things like social anxiety disorders, where that fear of rejection of others becomes so severe it immobilize them. We as a species extend that fear into everything to one level or another.

The fear of rejection. The fear of abandonment. The fear of loss. The fear of pain. The fear of grief. The fear of our own death, imagined in our minds, seen on the horizon of the future. Worries about tomorrow. Anxieties about finances, health, social status, food, appearance, self-esteem, fears of confronting one's own shame, one's own demons we have exiled into the corner whom we fear greatly and keep tight under lock and key, etc. The list could go on and on and on. And everyone to more than a little degree or another spends an enormous amount of energy in protecting ourselves of these perceived threats, of which any that are actually real or useful are very few in number.

But the greatest fear of all is our existential fear. The fear of death. But not the fear of physical death, but that our life has no meaning or value, staring into the face of absolute annihilation, or the Abyss as Camus called it, taking you to the edge of despair. Standing on the precipice between being and nonbeing, or "nothingness" That is the whole basis of an existential crisis which often leads to a great awakening, ah hah moment. From great doubt, comes great awakening. (That describes my own experience when I was young).

Everyone lives with that, like a background radiation from the big bang, or in our case the "Big Brain". This is the curse of the big brain, it seems.

So what I'm talking about is not fearing anything real, walking around like some blissed-out hippie on LSD who thinks mainstreet is a cornfield and there are no "real cars" there about to hit him. I'm talking about being liberated from all that constant background hum of all that energy we extend in our thought to all these "worries", from A to Z, back around again, and though the list over and over and over again.

When that has been set aside completely, then you become fully present in the moment, and are engaged with life full on. It's hardly an escape from reality. It's abandoning a non-reality for the Real. When so engaged, then all these normal "worries" are simple matters, and regardless of outcome, you are the source of your own happiness. As it should be for everyone.

I cant help wondering if you guys are not trying
to train yourselves to not experience, well, the human
experience.

I see it as fully awakening to the human experience, whereas before it was being an asleep human, caught in a pergetorial existence between heaven and hell. Once awake, then we become who we truly are, regardless of what happens, including death. Resistance to life, is what causes our existential unhappiness.

I'd have another quote, or, not really a quote, it is
a concept that I never have felt I really understood,
but it was about learning to value all experiences.

I'm getting to really enjoy hearing quotes from her. She seems insightful. Yes, absolutely! That is what it means to be fully present in the moment. All experience tells us about ourselves, if we get out of the way and allow it to be our guide though life.

 

[Vinayaka]

That’s good but the difference between ‘bidden’ and ‘unbidden’ is not always so clear-cut.

Depends who you are. For me, unbidden means I hadn't thought about the topic for at least a month, or it was a topic I'd never thought about at all. So it's like seeing a strange face in meditation. Still, I know what you're saying. Personally, I've acted on stuff within 3 seconds or so of receiving it. No thinking at all, just, Wow, this is what has to be done." But those moments are rare, but strongly intuitive.

 

[osgart]

For me i think its an error to seek the truth by trying to find absolute reality. Absolute reality is for scientists. Absolute truth is for those who seek the ultimate innocence of living what is upright. Virtues! are every good word of character and heart of being, and thus the very truth.

What religion wants to do is make truth a reality. So they invent God, or the force like in Star Wars.

But who knows if reality has that capacity of being spiritual. After all everyone is born with the capacity to love and to care, maybe, just maybe that is no accident.

 

[Jumi]

What are you seekers going to do with
"truth" once you have found it?

Probably the same thing as people have always done, discuss it until it goes away....

 

[Audie]

Sure, yes. I get that.


As with anything I say like that, it does take some clarification sometimes. No, I'd don't mean never experiencing the natural fears that you should feel when there is a real and immediate threat. That is completely nature, and healthy since it saves our lives.

The kind of fear I am talking about it the basic fear condition of the human being, as an evolved primate with a really big brain, we extend that basic primal instinct of fear into everything, all manner of threats perceived, not the least of which are things that contribute to things like social anxiety disorders, where that fear of rejection of others becomes so severe it immobilize them. We as a species extend that fear into everything to one level or another.

The fear of rejection. The fear of abandonment. The fear of loss. The fear of pain. The fear of grief. The fear of our own death, imagined in our minds, seen on the horizon of the future. Worries about tomorrow. Anxieties about finances, health, social status, food, appearance, self-esteem, fears of confronting one's own shame, one's own demons we have exiled into the corner whom we fear greatly and keep tight under lock and key, etc. The list could go on and on and on. And everyone to more than a little degree or another spends an enormous amount of energy in protecting ourselves of these perceived threats, of which any that are actually real or useful are very few in number.

But the greatest fear of all is our existential fear. The fear of death. But not the fear of physical death, but that our life has no meaning or value, staring into the face of absolute annihilation, or the Abyss as Camus called it, taking you to the edge of despair. Standing on the precipice between being and nonbeing, or "nothingness" That is the whole basis of an existential crisis which often leads to a great awakening, ah hah moment. From great doubt, comes great awakening. (That describes my own experience when I was young).

Everyone lives with that, like a background radiation from the big bang, or in our case the "Big Brain". This is the curse of the big brain, it seems.

So what I'm talking about is not fearing anything real, walking around like some blissed-out hippie on LSD who thinks mainstreet is a cornfield and there are no "real cars" there about to hit him. I'm talking about being liberated from all that constant background hum of all that energy we extend in our thought to all these "worries", from A to Z, back around again, and though the list over and over and over again.

When that has been set aside completely, then you become fully present in the moment, and are engaged with life full on. It's hardly an escape from reality. It's abandoning a non-reality for the Real. When so engaged, then all these normal "worries" are simple matters, and regardless of outcome, you are the source of your own happiness. As it should be for everyone.


I see it as fully awakening to the human experience, whereas before it was being an asleep human, caught in a pergetorial existence between heaven and hell. Once awake, then we become who we truly are, regardless of what happens, including death. Resistance to life, is what causes our existential unhappiness.


I'm getting to really enjoy hearing quotes from her. She seems insightful. Yes, absolutely! That is what it means to be fully present in the moment. All experience tells us about ourselves, if we get out of the way and allow it to be our guide though life.

The practice of mindlfullness does seem to be
getting a lot of attention, lately, and I suppose
that to be generally a good thing.

The state of fear that you describe seems
quite alien and unreal to me I suppose many
are like that, but it is not my experience in life.

I do not personally feel any need to engage
in spiritual practices to liberate myself from
such fears.

 

[Audie]

Probably the same thing as people have always done, discuss it until it goes away....

Maybe. Or maybe the non- utility of the "truth",
so conceived matches its nonexistence

 

[Earthling]

In what way do you search for truth?

for me i look for truth from within. (inner wisdom)

I thought I had replied to this but apparently I haven't. Perhaps something came up in the middle of my posting and I never got back to it.

Anyway, I look for truth everywhere. I open my eyes and I see mountains and valleys and streams and oceans and canyons and universes of data encrypted in reams of information in the stream of time. Some of it in boxes and some of it - most of the truth, that is - outside of the boxes. I sift through that like sand. Hopefully to find some truth here and some there like precious stones.

"In the time of my confession, in the hour of my deepest need
When the pool of tears beneath my feet floods every newborn seed
There's a dying voice within me reaching out somewhere
Toiling in the danger and the morals of despair

Don't have the inclination to look back on any mistake
Like Cain, I now behold this chain of events that I must break
In the fury of the moment I can see the master's hand
In every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand

Oh, the flowers of indulgence and the weeds of yesteryear
Like criminals, they have choked the breath of conscience and good cheer
The sun beams down upon the steps of time to light the way
To ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay

I gaze into the doorway of temptation's angry flame
And every time I pass that way I'll always hear my name
Then onward in my journey I come to understand
That every hair is numbered like every grain of sand

I have gone from rags to riches in the sorrow of the night
In the violence of a summer's dream, in the chill of a wintry light
In the bitter dance of loneliness fading into space
In the broken mirror of innocence on each forgotten face

I hear the ancient footsteps like the motion of the sea
Sometimes I turn, there's someone there, other times it's only me
I am hanging in the balance of the reality of man
Like every sparrow falling, like every grain of sand"

Every Grain Of Sand - Bob Dylan

 

[Jumi]

Maybe. Or maybe the non- utility of the "truth",
so conceived matches its nonexistence

Both useful and not useful things become discussed away by critics. Whether some elegant truth can be found is only judged by people. Though some such things can become lost quite easily, as we see in the history of technology and science.

 

[Hawkins]

In what way do you search for truth?

for me i look for truth from within. (inner wisdom)

There are basically five kinds of truth. Humans in majority rely on putting faith in a "middle man" to reach a truth of any kind!

1. Scientific truth
Science is about a set of rule governing a repeatable phenomenon. The "middle man" as an eyewitness is our scientists. Humans in majority don't need to gather evidence of a scientific truth. It is our scientists who gather the evidence, for the rest of human kind to get to a truth by faith in their works.

Evidence of this kind of truth is always available for anyone to examine simply because by nature it's about a repeatable phenomenon.

2. Present truth
Current and recent occurrence, such as our daily news broadcast in TVs. Of course the "middle man" standing between the truth and humans in majority is our reporters and journalists who gather information from eyewitnesses accounts of testimonies.

3. Historical truth (such as our history)
It's about things occurred in the long past. The "middle man" as an eyewitness is our historians lived in the different spots of the timeline of humanity. Under most circumstance we have no choice but to believe what is said, or else it means that we have no history. They are testimonies mostly not verifiable except for some odd mass activities. For an counter example, the Chinese claim that there were 300,000 casualties in Nanjing massacre which is completely denied by Japanese. Evidence? No, you won't have any, as history is a matter of human testimonies even in the case of a mass activity like this.

4. touchable truth
That's something every single human can touch to tell, such as water is wet. It's about how we sense our surrounding on a daily basis repeatedly. Thus it can be evidenced, say, to touch water to sense it's nature anytime as you wish.

5. untouchable truth
Other than history in the past which is not touchable by humans, events in future or existence outside our space are not observable by humans even with their science. To reach the untouchable truths, faith in human testimonies remains the only way. You can thus believe that UFO is a truth, or reject it. The only thing humans can examine is the reliability of those testimonies. We rather put faith in the reliability of testimonies to make a decision on either to believe or to reject. A truth (even in the end that it's confirmed to be a truth, say the aliens show up to humans) of this kind can only be reached by faith and faith alone.

 

[loverofhumanity]

In what way do you search for truth?

for me i look for truth from within. (inner wisdom)

I found these quotes which I hope will be helpful.

If each believe his particular religion to be the only true one, he blinds his eyes to the truth in the others.

The fact that we imagine ourselves to be right and everybody else wrong is the greatest of all obstacles

“it is necessary for a man to put aside all in the nature of superstition, and every tradition which would blind his eyes to the existence of truth in all religions. He must not, while loving and clinging to one form of religion, permit himself to detest
all others. It is essential that he search for truth in all religions,

No one truth can contradict another truth. Light is good in whatsoever lamp it is burning! A rose is beautiful in whatsoever garden it may bloom! A star has the same radiance if it shines from the East or from the West. Be free from prejudice, so will you love the Sun of Truth from whatsoever point in the horizon it may arise! You will realize that if the Divine light of truth shone in Jesus Christ it also shone in Moses and in Buddha” (Baha’i Writings)

 

[Segev Moran]

In what way do you search for truth?

for me i look for truth from within. (inner wisdom)

I search for it anywhere.
Inner wisdom is important, but it lacks a lot of wisdom others might have already found

 

[Spirit of Light]

I search for it anywhere.
Inner wisdom is important, but it lacks a lot of wisdom others might have already found

Personally i only looking for wisdom from the spiritual life, the mundane&physical life is not something i look for wisdom within.

 

[Trailblazer]

For me i think its an error to seek the truth by trying to find absolute reality. Absolute reality is for scientists. Absolute truth is for those who seek the ultimate innocence of living what is upright. Virtues! are every good word of character and heart of being, and thus the very truth.

Even scientists do not have absolute reality because another discovery could debunk what they discovered and proved to be true. Only God has Absolute Truth.

The purpose of this mortal existence is to acquire spiritual virtues and and upright character. Baha'u'llah wrote that the light of a good character surpasses the light of the sun.

But who knows if reality has that capacity of being spiritual. After all everyone is born with the capacity to love and to care, maybe, just maybe that is no accident.

Loving and caring, that is what "being spiritual" is all about...

 

[osgart]

Even scientists do not have absolute reality because another discovery could debunk what they discovered and proved to be true. Only God has Absolute Truth.

The purpose of this mortal existence is to acquire spiritual virtues and and upright character. Baha'u'llah wrote that the light of a good character surpasses the light of the sun.

Loving and caring, that is what "being spiritual" is all about...

Hi there Trailblazer, good to hear from ya.

I thought about the capacities human beings have to love and to care, and i see those capacities as a proof of a deeper reality rather then electrochemical emotional reactions.

I feel that the scientific worldview of consciousness is much lacking and far off from what it really means to be alive. We are more then mechanisms, and drives. I think that all the talk about consciousness arising from physical complexity is a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

I insist on maintaining my own logic to the idea that intelligence is eternal and has always been there, and the soul is no illusion. I dont get caught up in scientific terminology and how it labels reality in purely mechanistic terms.

Even discovering all the mechanisms and correlations of mind to brain, i feel that there is a huge hole in explaining all that a being is. That hole will always be there.

Some guys insist there is no ghost in the machine. They are obsessed with pure physicality for explanation of absolutely everything. But pure physicality is none descriptive of qualities and capacities of being.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi there Trailblazer, good to hear from ya.

I thought about the capacities human beings have to love and to care, and i see those capacities as a proof of a deeper reality rather then electrochemical emotional reactions.

I feel that the scientific worldview of consciousness is much lacking and far off from what it really means to be alive. We are more then mechanisms, and drives. I think that all the talk about consciousness arising from physical complexity is a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

I insist on maintaining my own logic to the idea that intelligence is eternal and has always been there, and the soul is no illusion. I dont get caught up in scientific terminology and how it labels reality in purely mechanistic terms.

Even discovering all the mechanisms and correlations of mind to brain, i feel that there is a huge hole in explaining all that a being is. That hole will always be there.

Some guys insist there is no ghost in the machine. They are obsessed with pure physicality for explanation of absolutely everything. But pure physicality is none descriptive of qualities and capacities of being.

It is always good to hear from you osgart. I had not seen you around for a while so it is good to know you are still here.

The soul is the missing link. Without at least understanding that it exists and its function, people cannot really understand who they really are. We are not physical beings, we are spiritual beings. We only inhabit a physical body for a short time.

The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, a place to house the soul. The body is like the horse, the soul is the person who rides the horse.

The soul is our self, the sum total of who we are, our personality. The soul is responsible for animating the body, and thus the brain. It is the soul that is responsible for our consciousness. The soul works through the brain and mind while we are alive in a physical body, but when the body dies the soul goes to the spiritual world and takes on a new form.

Consciousness continues after the body dies because the soul does not need the body to exist. The soul leaves the body it continues to the spiritual world where it takes on another form.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.........

The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

 

[osgart]

It is always good to hear from you osgart. I had not seen you around for a while so it is good to know you are still here.

The soul is the missing link. Without at least understanding that it exists and its function, people cannot really understand who they really are. We are not physical beings, we are spiritual beings. We only inhabit a physical body for a short time.

The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, a place to house the soul. The body is like the horse, the soul is the person who rides the horse.

The soul is our self, the sum total of who we are, our personality. The soul is responsible for animating the body, and thus the brain. It is the soul that is responsible for our consciousness. The soul works through the brain and mind while we are alive in a physical body, but when the body dies the soul goes to the spiritual world and takes on a new form.

Consciousness continues after the body dies because the soul does not need the body to exist. The soul leaves the body it continues to the spiritual world where it takes on another form.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.........

The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

You make some very fascinating and important points there Trailblazer. Thankyou!

Those are awesome quotes there too.

I really dont think all religions are from God though. They seem to be human attempts at knowing God. But i am very fascinated by Gleanings.

When i was young i didnt know myself like so many people. I wandered aimlessly experimenting with life.

I think maybe we live in the desert of existence, and perhaps this world is in need of rescue. Perhaps life on earth isnt as it is meant to be.

The one thing i never gave up on about religion was that i have a soul. Theres the heart, the mind, the will and those only do what you choose to do with them.

Maybe we are all starting out blind lost children in life sojourning in our own ways. Or something! I dont have the answers to all the questions running through my mind. But i do sense that life has perfect ideals like charity, and other virtues. And because of those ideals, something Divine is out there.

 

[Trailblazer]

You make some very fascinating and important points there Trailblazer. Thank you!

Those are awesome quotes there too.

I really dont think all religions are from God though. They seem to be human attempts at knowing God. But i am very fascinated by Gleanings.

I do not think we can *know God.* God is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. God transcends and is independent of all His creatures. The Baha’i belief is that we can only know some of the attributes of God which are reflected in the Messengers but God is above all attributes. We can also know the Will of God which God reveals through Messengers in every age.

The difference between the Baha’i belief and the Christian belief is that Christians believe they can have a *personal relationship* with God but Baha’is do not believe that is possible to have any *direct* relationship with God because God is immensely exalted above all His creatures.

The following passage explains what I tried to encapsulate.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.

Some, deluded by their idle fancies, have conceived all created things as associates and partners of God, and imagined themselves to be the exponents of His unity. By Him Who is the one true God! Such men have been, and will continue to remain, the victims of blind imitation, and are to be numbered with them that have restricted and limited the conception of God.

He is a true believer in Divine unity who, far from confusing duality with oneness, refuseth to allow any notion of multiplicity to becloud his conception of the singleness of God, who will regard the Divine Being as One Who, by His very nature, transcendeth the limitations of numbers.

The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 166-167​

When i was young I didnt know myself like so many people. I wandered aimlessly experimenting with life.

When I was growing I had no religion at all because both my parents dropped out of Christianity long before their three children were born. Both my parents were pretty remote and then my dad died when I was 12 years old, so I was pretty lost during high school. I got my bearings when I went off to college, but then after that, I had emotional problems I struggled with for many, many years.

Because of my upbringing, I never thought about God or religion, until in my first year of college I stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith. The main reason I joined was because of the teachings and basic principles such as progressive revelation, and I was very taken with the Writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha and the first Baha’is I met in Canada.

After I became a Baha’i at age 17 I had a lot of personal problems I had to work through because of emotional issues I carried over from childhood, so I dropped out of the Faith and even forgot about God for the most part. I was in a lot of 12 step programs but I could not even relate to the *idea* of a higher power. Then after my recovery from the childhood issues, I went through a long period where I though God was punishing me and I was angry and remote from God during that time.

Then, six years ago, I stumbled upon the Planet Baha’i forum and began a whole new journey in my life. I finally had people I could talk to about God and religion and I learned a lot. I soon branched off to other forums in that group. I started posting to Christians at first, but later I started posting to nonbelievers. For the last four years I have primarily posted to nonbelievers, and only rarely Christians or those of other religions. One exception was that there was one Christian I posted to for years, but we parted ways about a year ago.

I started my own forum in October 2014 and it was pretty active for about a year, but then I started to go to other forums so I did not have time to do much on my forum. Now it is a place for people to come if they do not feel comfortable posting on other forums in that group, and occasionally it has activity. I made a lot of friends on these forums, mostly atheists and agnostics, but I have one good Baha’i friend I have kept in contact with.

I think maybe we live in the desert of existence, and perhaps this world is in need of rescue. Perhaps life on earth isnt as it is meant to be.

The one thing i never gave up on about religion was that i have a soul. Theres the heart, the mind, the will and those only do what you choose to do with them.

Maybe we are all starting out blind lost children in life sojourning in our own ways. Or something! I dont have the answers to all the questions running through my mind. But i do sense that life has perfect ideals like charity, and other virtues. And because of those ideals, something Divine is out there

I was pretty lost and in need of rescue until about six years ago. I was self-aware from doing a lot of personal healing work, but I was cut off from any personal relationships, busy mostly with work and other business interests and our many cats. Then I gradually changed when I came to forums and started learning new things and relating to people. It has been quite a spiritual journey for me.

As a Baha’i, I think the world is lost and in need of the remedy that Baha’u’llah brought.There is our personal journey, the journey of the soul, but there is also the healing of the world collectively. I tend to focus more on individual healing and one-to-one relationships, since my educational background is counseling psychology, but I am also cognizant of social issues and the need for healing the ills of the world.

 

[JJ50]

I wish I had never heard about God and Christianity when I was a kid, it would have made for a much better upbringing.