scripture to condemn homosexuality

[Mike182]

first off

lets keep this to civil discussion, and not attack eachother - keep it friendly

secondly - when you quote scripture, please please please explain its relevance to the debate, dont just throw it in



so, what does the bible actaully say about homosexuality?

 

[James the Persian]

Well, I was actually expecting you to produce some scripture to justify homosexual sex not being sinful rather than the reverse, but I'll still take part and I'll certainly keep it civil. I can't actually produce any scripture to condemn homosexuality because none such exists. Homosexuality is not sin, homosexual sex is. I want to get this out in the open from the beginning because I see too many Christians condemning homosexuals for who they are when they should be showing them the same love they show other men and only condemning the sins that they do.

Here's my first quote:

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1 24-32, NKJV

Do you mind if I ask that everyone states which version they are using? I've already seen the use of at least one very poor translation with respect to this issue. In that case it was the NIV and was far removed from the text of the Septuagint (which is the original Christian OT).

James

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

so, what does the bible actaully say about homosexuality?

I think somewhere in Revelations it talks about using the forums search engine, which would probably lead you here - but I could be wrong.

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

Well, I was actually expecting you to produce some scripture to justify homosexual sex not being sinful rather than the reverse, but I'll still take part and I'll certainly keep it civil. I can't actually produce any scripture to condemn homosexuality because none such exists. Homosexuality is not sin, homosexual sex is. I want to get this out in the open from the beginning because I see too many Christians condemning homosexuals for who they are when they should be showing them the same love they show other men and only condemning the sins that they do.

Nice one James! That's right, it's the sin, not the sinner that should be condemned! :clap

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Nice one James! That's right, it's the sin, not the sinner that should be condemned!

But it is the sinner who must be put to death.

 

[Mike182]

Well, I was actually expecting you to produce some scripture to justify homosexual sex not being sinful rather than the reverse, but I'll still take part and I'll certainly keep it civil. I can't actually produce any scripture to condemn homosexuality because none such exists. Homosexuality is not sin, homosexual sex is. I want to get this out in the open from the beginning because I see too many Christians condemning homosexuals for who they are when they should be showing them the same love they show other men and only condemning the sins that they do.

Here's my first quote:

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1 24-32, NKJV

Do you mind if I ask that everyone states which version they are using? I've already seen the use of at least one very poor translation with respect to this issue. In that case it was the NIV and was far removed from the text of the Septuagint (which is the original Christian OT).

James

i dont have scripture to support homosexual sex per se, but i kinda do aswell lol

i opend this thread because often peopel say "the bible clearly condemns homosexuality" and i dont think it does, so im asking for the verses that do this

the verse you quote does at face value condemn same sex relationships - however its this bit i find interesting

"they exchange the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator.... for this reason God gave them up ...."

i have not exchanged the truth of God for a lie, i do not worship the creature, so this verse does not apply to my situation because it says it was for this reason

it then gives a list of the qualities of the people being condemned posess - full of envy, murder, strife, deciet etc

this is not applicable to my situation because i no more murder, decieve, or envy any more than the next man - fair enough we are all filled with such things to an extent - but modern monogomous homosexuals are no more filled with this than others

i do like that translation though, its a lot better than others ive seen

 

[jorylore]

What about 1 Cor. 6:9 where it says that "men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men...", will inherit God's kingdom. (NWT) How much clearer can it be? But then in v. 11 it says, "yet that is what some of you were." In order to have God's approval, these one's needed to stop practicing same sex relations. I do agree that it is the practice the Bible condems and not the person.

 

[James the Persian]

OK, but I think that you are ignoring this

For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

In favour of why God allowed them to fall into homosexual passions (described as vile). The text clearly describes the acts themselves as shameful and due a penalty and therefore I fail to see how you can say this doesn't apply. Sorry, but I don't understand. Some of the precursors to those passions may not apply and some of the other things they did or believed likewise, but even removed from these incidentals (which I quoted because I have issues with people ripping verses out of context) the text clearly appears to condemn homosexual acts both lesbian and gay.

James

 

[Mike182]

OK, but I think that you are ignoring this

For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

In favour of why God allowed them to fall into homosexual passions (described as vile). The text clearly describes the acts themselves as shameful and due a penalty and therefore I fail to see how you can say this doesn't apply. Sorry, but I don't understand. Some of the precursors to those passions may not apply and some of the other things they did or believed likewise, but even removed from these incidentals (which I quoted because I have issues with people ripping verses out of context) the text clearly appears to condemn homosexual acts both lesbian and gay.

James

i think what this is getting at is that these people are due a penalty because they worship the creature and a lie (i dont) and i think the people in the example used were sleeping around a lot - this is adultery and condemned (quite rightly so) but not relative to my situation as i am not sleeping around

i am assuming that they are sleeping around, but then again, it is an assumption that they are monogomous aswell - but given the time context - it is highly likely they are sleeping around

as far as we know - homosexuality is not governed by choice - hence it is natural - this passage condemns acting against ones nature - so for something like homosexuality that is natural - this objection is not applicable#

paul would not have thought in these modern terms - so he would have seen natural as man and woman, and he would have seen man and man as unnatrual - but because homosexuality is natural his condemnation is not applicable

this very heavily depends uponhomosexuality being seen as natural - people will undoubtedly argue this point bu ti do believe it to be natural - thus the condemnation in this passage is non applicable

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... the text clearly appears to condemn homosexual acts both lesbian and gay.

And Leviticus clearly condems to death those who engage in these acts.

 

[Mike182]

And Leviticus clearly condems to death those who engage in these acts.

yes, but i dont believe the commands in leviticus to be relevant today - the weaving of two cloth etc

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

yes, but i dont believe the commands in leviticus to be relevant today - the weaving of two cloth etc

Believe what you wish, the observation is that Scripture held homosexuality to be so perverse as to warrant the death penalty. In light of this, the argued distinction between condemning the act and condemning the person might well have been too nuanced for the victims of God's judgement to appreciate.

 

[Sabio]

Well, I was actually expecting you to produce some scripture to justify homosexual sex not being sinful rather than the reverse, but I'll still take part and I'll certainly keep it civil. I can't actually produce any scripture to condemn homosexuality because none such exists. Homosexuality is not sin, homosexual sex is. I want to get this out in the open from the beginning because I see too many Christians condemning homosexuals for who they are when they should be showing them the same love they show other men and only condemning the sins that they do.

Here's my first quote:

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1 24-32, NKJV

Do you mind if I ask that everyone states which version they are using? I've already seen the use of at least one very poor translation with respect to this issue. In that case it was the NIV and was far removed from the text of the Septuagint (which is the original Christian OT).

James

I agree competely with James. We should love the sinner, but hate the sin, as God does.

Sabio

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I agree competely with James. We should love the sinner, but hate the sin, as God does.

10 Whatever man shall commit adultery with the wife of a man, or whoever shall commit adultery with the wife of his neighbour, let them die the death, the adulterer and the adulteress. 11 And if any one should lie with his father’s wife, he has uncovered his father’s nakedness: let them both die the death, they are guilty. 12 And if any one should lie with his daughter-in-law, let them both be put to death; for they have wrought impiety, they are guilty. 13 And whoever shall lie with a male as with a woman, they have both wrought abomination; let them die the death, they are guilty. 14 Whosoever shall take a woman and her mother, it is iniquity: they shall burn him and them with fire; so there shall not be iniquity among you. 15 And whosoever shall lie with a beast, let him die the death; and ye shall kill the beast. 16 And whatever woman shall approach any beast, so as to have connexion with it, ye shall kill the woman and the beast: let them die the death, they are guilty. 17 Whosoever shall take his sister by his father or by his mother, and shall see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness, it is a reproach: they shall be destroyed before the children of their family; he has uncovered his sister’s nakedness, they shall bear their sin. 18 And whatever man shall lie with a woman that is set apart for a flux, and shall uncover her nakedness, he has uncovered her fountain, and she has uncovered the flux of her blood: they shall both be destroyed from among their generation. 19 And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s sister, or of the sister of thy mother; for that man has uncovered the nakedness of one near akin: they shall bear their iniquity. 20 Whosoever shall lie with his near kinswoman, has uncovered the nakedness of one near akin to him: they shall die childless. 21 Whoever shall take his brother’s wife, it is uncleanness; he has uncovered his brother’s nakedness; they shall die childless.

Septuagint: Leviticus 18

Love the sinner as God does? No thanks.

 

[DreamQuickBook]

I agree competely with James. We should love the sinner, but hate the sin, as God does.

Sabio

I've always felt such sentences were filled with a particularly uncaring smugness. Love the sinner and hate the sin? If you cannot love someone for who they are, then you do not love them. Being a sexual being, i.e. being a homosexual, is not sinful. Sex is not sinful. I much more respect directness. Directness I can simply disagree with. If you do not like homosexuals… say so. What is the harm in that? Must we be so politically correct that we are not honest about our own proclivities?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I've always felt such sentences were filled with a particularly uncaring smugness. Love the sinner and hate the sin?

Very well said.

 

[michel]

And what is more; it is not up to us to condemn, nor to judge. It is a matter between the individual and his God.

 

[Sabio]

http://nelsonbibles.com/

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=94 http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=30

Romans 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Romans 1:27
Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

 

[Sabio]

I've always felt such sentences were filled with a particularly uncaring smugness. Love the sinner and hate the sin? If you cannot love someone for who they are, then you do not love them. Being a sexual being, i.e. being a homosexual, is not sinful. Sex is not sinful. I much more respect directness. Directness I can simply disagree with. If you do not like homosexuals… say so. What is the harm in that? Must we be so politically correct that we are not honest about our own proclivities?

Well you twisted what I said to fit your own particular bias....

I have stated many times on these threads that we (Christians) should love gays just like anyone else, not abuse or deride them, but try to help them just as we would any other brother who has fallen. I don't look down on gays, I look up to God.

As for sin, I hate my own sin just as much, becasue sin seperates us from God.

Sabio

 

[DreamQuickBook]

Sabio, you believe these verses?