Scripture of The Day - Day 2

[Eddi]

So, here is my second entry!

In it I'm citing from my favourite bible edition (the Good News Translation) alongside the Amplified Bible, which I think is very useful in that it attempts to clarify the intended meanings of terms.

Check out my blog/website at: Edward's Mission

John 10:30 (Good News Translation)

The Father and I are one

John 10:30 (Amplified Bible)

I and the Father are One [in essence and nature]

1) My Thoughts On The Mater - The Trinity

So, in this scripture it is Jesus talking...

I think what he means to say is that him and The Father are two different parts of the same thing (The Godhead)

He is saying that there is a distinction to be made between "I" (himself) and "The Father" yet he is also saying that they are both different parts of the same thing.

Separate parts of the same thing!
Is that really so hard to understand? What's all the fuss about?​

Each is its own thing whilst being a part of something greater - The Trinity

What is to say that The Son is consubstantial with The Father

The Father has always existed. He is the unmoved mover. He transcends time and causation. Indeed he created time and causation.

In my previous post I discussed how God made Jesus and then let Jesus create the world. I said that God created Jesus and then allowed Jesus to create the universe. So Jesus was therefore created by God The Father yet also pre-dates the universe - what we know as "Creation".

Here is the link: https://www.edwardsmission.com/2020/12/scripture-of-day-day-1.html

2) My Thoughts On The Matter - Different Essences

I believe that Jesus was created out of the divine essence, out of the same substance as God

I believe the essence out of which Jesus was created has always existed, but that it is only recently that (in the case of Jesus) it was made separate and then moulded into Jesus, and so became an independent entity in its own right: Jesus Christ himself

So, God The Father has always existed. And Jesus Christ was created, but out of a substance which has always existed.

He was therefore crafted, but not created!

But what about us humans? We haven't always existed, that's for sure. What about us?

I think that we developed out of the natural universe. I believe the biblical creation account to be allegory - true, but not literally true! - I believe that the cause of human life can be traced all the way back to the Big Bang: which was caused by God!

We were therefore ultimately created out of nothing - ex nihilo. By God's divine creative imagination. By God's divine creative agency. He made something that did not exist before suddenly exist - he didn't transform one type of substance into another, he made something suddenly exist out of nothing! How mind-bending is that!

We are therefore not made out of the always-existing eternal (divine) substance that God and Jesus (and The Holy Spirit) are made of

But out of a different kind of substance - a created (mundane) substance - the stuff of creation

There is therefore a distinction between creator and created

Not only are humans and God and Jesus (and The Holy Spirit) separate phenomena, their essences are also different - the former have always existed, the latter were created

Finally, consider this: If humans and God were of the same substance, why would Jesus need to say that him and The Father were "one"? I think that by saying he and The Father are "one" he is also saying that humans are not "one" and are therefore in a different category of existence to himself and The Father! By including himself in that category (along with God) he is excluding everyone else from that category, i.e. all humans

By including himself with God in The Trinity he is also excluding humankind from The Trinity and placing us in another category of being - the subjects of God, rather than God himself

What does this scripture tell us?

• The Trinity is a thing and quite easy to visualise
• Creator and Creation are different things
• God and humans are made out of different essences

That's how I understand it, anyway!

Check out my blog/website at: Edward's Mission

 

[Brian2]

So, God The Father has always existed. And Jesus Christ was created, but out of a substance which has always existed.

John 1:3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being.

So Jesus is not one of the things that came into existence.

 

[Eddi]

So Jesus is not one of the things that came into existence.

Yes, he did not come into existence out of matter that was created ex-nihilo - like how what John 1:3 says "all things" were

He was not created, but instead he was crafted out of something that was uncreated

So yes, he didn't "come into existence" like how we did - because his essence always existed, unlike ours

That's how I understand it anyway!

 

[stvdv]

He is saying that there is a distinction to be made between "I" (himself) and "The Father" yet he is also saying that they are both different parts of the same thing.

Separate parts of the same thing!
Is that really so hard to understand? What's all the fuss about?​

In India I was taught that we should never say "God = ......", because that limits God (understandable if you know about mathematics)
So, it would be okay to say "...... = God" (mathematically correct to say "The Father = God" ... "The Son = God" ....)

So, that means the "IS" parts in the picture should have an arrow to make it correct

Above is, as always, my opinion

 

[Estro Felino]

I do agree with your conclusions. That Creation and Creator are two distinct things...because in God's mind Creation is perfect and Heavenly, whereas in reality it is chaotic and imperfect.
I also believe, as you said that Father and Son are of the same substance; and in fact Jesus restlessly says that His Kingdom is not of this world.
Meaning, I guess, that he was living His worldly experience and the otherworldly one simultaneously.

 

[stvdv]

I do agree with your conclusions. That Creation and Creator are two distinct things...because in God's mind Creation is perfect and Heavenly, whereas in reality it is chaotic and imperfect.

Are you saying that God's mind is not the reality, but our mind is the reality?

 

[Brian2]

Yes, he did not come into existence out of matter that was created ex-nihilo - like how what John 1:3 says "all things" were

He was not created, but instead he was crafted out of something that was uncreated

So yes, he didn't "come into existence" like how we did - because his essence always existed, unlike ours

That's how I understand it anyway!

"created", "crafted", sounds like semantics to me.
If John 1:3 is correct and is saying that through the Word ALL things came into existence then He did not bring Himself into existence, so He is not of the things that came into existence.
My understanding is that He, the Word, has existed from eternity and not just the substance He was crafted or born or made from.
In a human way we think of a Son and say He must be younger than His Father.
It may not make as much sense with God in a timeless realm however.
The way I understand it is that the life of the Son comes from His Father and it has been that way from eternity whatever that means in a timeless realm. Maybe it is best said that "In the beginning the Word was with God...."
But of course we all understand these things in different ways. It is easy to see the distinctness of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but it is harder to understand the oneness.