Scripture (Bible) questions and wonders

[Segev Moran]

Hi All,
Although I Don't believe that God is real, I do find the Bible a very intriguing book.

One story I really like is the story of Job,
I heard countless explanations about the story but honestly, None of them seems satisfying or genuine.

I would love hearing your thoughts about the story, about the role of the Devil in the story and about the fact that God is presented as a deity that was "Tricked" by the Satan.

For those who are not familiar with the story, in a nut shell:

Job is a very Righteous man who obeys Gods rules no matter what. He thus prosper and God provides him with richness (Both material and spiritual).

Incomes Satan, and dares God that Job only follows God because he have fortune and makes a bet with God that if it wasn't so (If Job's life were hard) he will surely stop believing and following God.

Surprisingly, God wants to prove Job's loyalty and allows the devil to harm Job, Job's family and Job's possessions.

Can't wait to hear some interpretations for the story.

Regards.

 

[George-ananda]

I see it just as a story showing how a good person can be devoted to good for goodness' sake and not for personal gain. I wouldn't overanalyze it beyond that,

 

[Segev Moran]

I see it just as a story showing how a good person can be devoted to good for goodness' sake and not for personal gain. I wouldn't overanalyze it beyond that,

Is life of your family a personal gain?

 

[George-ananda]

Is life of your family a personal gain?

I would say all material fortunes are not as important as devotion to a higher good.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I've heard the heavenly scenes are written after the main tale of Job's suffering, but besides that....

The end product tricks us into thinking it's about Job because it's the title of the story. However, it's really not. It's about God and HIS sense of morality, not Job's. Job has literally done nothing to deserve getting whacked by God (a fact God attests to Himself and also sets up the lie in the NT that none are righteous, at least in part, as there are plenty of righteous people in the bible). It is said that God cannot be tempted, but here He is, letting some little nincompoop yank His chain until He does something immoral. Satan never lies as much as tempts you to do the darkness you won't admit is there. God refuses to accept He can be dark, thus this story to really hammer it home.

Nearly everyone I've seen defend this story ends up sounding just like Job's "friends", who all do the victim blaming and write off God as holy. God calls them all out on it and punishes their foolishness ... BUT ... still won't admit TO JOB that He did all this for absolutely no good reason. Somehow, God feels that letting Job think there was some cosmic purpose is better than sounding like you had a drunken bar bet and beat up a homeless guy.

Another thing I find amusing is that God mocks Job for his understanding of creation. With Creationism dead set against facts, here we have a guy who must, by virtue of the lack of possibly even the ancient Greek prototype of evolutionary thought, believe in biblical creationism, and he's getting mocked for knowing nothing by God Himself.

 

[Segev Moran]

I would say all material fortunes are not as important as devotion to a higher good.

You didn't really answered my question (Or at least I hope you didn't)

Is lives of your family a material fortune?
God allowed a complete torture of Job.. Not only Material possessions, Also it allowed the murder of his family and making him a sick man....

How does this count as a material fortune?

And if you consider health and family as material that can be spared in favor of devotion.. Than God help us ()

 

[George-ananda]

You didn't really answered my question (Or at least I hope you didn't)

Is lives of your family a material fortune?

I thought the answer 'Yes' could be implied by my comments.

God allowed a complete torture of Job.. Not only Material possessions, Also it allowed the murder of his family and making him a sick man....

How does this count as a material fortune?

()

You may have missed my original point. The story is to show that a strong righteous person sticks to righteousness whatever calamities befall him.

And if you consider health and family as material that can be spared in favor of devotion.. Than God help us

That is not what the story is saying.

 

[Segev Moran]

I thought the answer 'Yes' could be implied by my comments.

You may have missed my original point. The story is to show that a strong righteous person sticks to righteousness whatever calamities befall him.That is not what the story is saying.

That i understood..
My query was about the fact the God inflicted those things on Job with not actual reason other than a "Bet" with Satan...
The "educational" part of the story.. i got it.. No matter how life sucks.. it is important to keep God on your mind...

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> which shows the goodness
that is
within you
with god or without god
if we may say so


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[Tumah]

Hi All,
Although I Don't believe that God is real, I do find the Bible a very intriguing book.

One story I really like is the story of Job,
I heard countless explanations about the story but honestly, None of them seems satisfying or genuine.

I would love hearing your thoughts about the story, about the role of the Devil in the story and about the fact that God is presented as a deity that was "Tricked" by the Satan.

For those who are not familiar with the story, in a nut shell:

Job is a very Righteous man who obeys Gods rules no matter what. He thus prosper and God provides him with richness (Both material and spiritual).

Incomes Satan, and dares God that Job only follows God because he have fortune and makes a bet with God that if it wasn't so (If Job's life were hard) he will surely stop believing and following God.

Surprisingly, God wants to prove Job's loyalty and allows the devil to harm Job, Job's family and Job's possessions.

Can't wait to hear some interpretations for the story.

Regards.

Can you narrow down the search field? What exactly are you looking for?

 

[Segev Moran]

Can you narrow down the search field? What exactly are you looking for?

I'll try...
I'm trying to figure out the religious POV of the story...
I Heard many explanations, most of which simply "neglect" the bad parts...
I'm trying to come up with an understanding what the author of this story was trying to pass on to his readers
I'm quite sure there is a very important idea behind presenting God as being "Tricked" by Satan...

One of the explanations i heard BTW, was that God wasn't really being tricked.. rather he planned it exactly how it came to be Lol...
very convenient

 

[Tumah]

I'll try...
I'm trying to figure out the religious POV of the story...
I Heard many explanations, most of which simply "neglect" the bad parts...
I'm trying to come up with an understanding what the author of this story was trying to pass on to his readers
I'm quite sure there is a very important idea behind presenting God as being "Tricked" by Satan...

One of the explanations i heard BTW, was that God wasn't really being tricked.. rather he planned it exactly how it came to be Lol...
very convenient

I've never heard that G-d was being "Tricked" by Satan. Satan being an extension of the Divine Will, I'm not even sure how that would be possible. So I don't really know what you're talking about.

 

[Segev Moran]

I've never heard that G-d was being "Tricked" by Satan. Satan being an extension of the Divine Will, I'm not even sure how that would be possible. So I don't really know what you're talking about.

Please just read the story...
"But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

So there are a few options here:

Either Humans are nothing but a game to God.. and he grants Satan to do as he pleases with Job...
Either God was tricked by Satan to grant Satan Job as a test case
Either God doesn't really care about Job nor inflicting pain and misery has no meaning to God
Either God himself wanted to test Job and used the Devil as a tool...

Any of the above, paints God in a questionable manner.. Thus i Ask

 

[Tumah]

Please just read the story...
"But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

So there are a few options here:

Either Humans are nothing but a game to God.. and he grants Satan to do as he pleases with Job...
Either God was tricked by Satan to grant Satan Job as a test case
Either God doesn't really care about Job nor inflicting pain and misery has no meaning to God
Either God himself wanted to test Job and used the Devil as a tool...

Any of the above, paints God in a questionable manner.. Thus i Ask

You know, on your last thread, I made you aware that there was a lot of Jewish theology that you're completely unaware of. Yet here you are again making conclusions based on the little information you have. If you want to just knock theists, you should mention that in the OP. This way we can avoid discussing theology with you, since that's ultimately not your intent. We're not here to entertain you. Be upfront.

 

[Segev Moran]

You know, on your last thread, I made you aware that there was a lot of Jewish theology that you're completely unaware of. Yet here you are again making conclusions based on the little information you have. If you want to just knock theists, you should mention that in the OP. This way we can avoid discussing theology with you, since that's ultimately not your intent. We're not here to entertain you. Be upfront.

I Think the fact that I'm an atheist and I in a section of Debate pretty much makes it obvious that I disagree with the theist POV.
But I Really am interested in understanding the theist POV.

I Was a theist... I Studied the bible quite a lot... and at the end of things, Always the answers I would get from ANY theist i debated was based on Faith alone.
I Understand the concept of Faith... As much as I would like to deny it, I Think everyone, no matter whether religious or not, have Faith regarding something...
The difference is I know Faith doesn't mean Truth...
And that's what intrigues me...
I try to learn Why for some people Faith is more important than Truth...
As i see it, The story of Job is an Example of that...

That the Faith that God is the perfect being that Theists claim it is, MIGHT make them "blind" to the flaws of it presented in the scriptures.

Now, Although I have a lot of knowledge and understanding of the spiritual POV, There are many Ideas that are very smart and refreshing...
in The above story, i Have yet to encounter such... And this thread is my genuine try to find an answer that can shed some light on the dilemma presented.

If you think my conclusion is wrong, stop blaming me for trying to knock someone or something, rather educate me and set me straight...

And yes, Obviously I Debate things that are Wrong, Twisted And Delusional about religion.. These are the parts that bother me and I can't seem to understand how they don't bother others.
If you can answer the question rather than trying to avoid it, maybe you can actually change my mind ?

 

[Segev Moran]

You know, on your last thread, I made you aware that there was a lot of Jewish theology that you're completely unaware of. Yet here you are again making conclusions based on the little information you have. If you want to just knock theists, you should mention that in the OP. This way we can avoid discussing theology with you, since that's ultimately not your intent. We're not here to entertain you. Be upfront.

And BTW, What was my last post? The question about "What is the universe" ideas?

 

[ukok102nak]

I Think the fact that I'm an atheist and I in a section of Debate pretty much makes it obvious that I disagree with the theist POV.
But I Really am interested in understanding the theist POV.

I Was a theist... I Studied the bible quite a lot... and at the end of things, Always the answers I would get from ANY theist i debated was based on Faith alone.
I Understand the concept of Faith... As much as I would like to deny it, I Think everyone, no matter whether religious or not, have Faith regarding something...
The difference is I know Faith doesn't mean Truth...
And that's what intrigues me...
I try to learn Why for some people Faith is more important than Truth...
As i see it, The story of Job is an Example of that...

That the Faith that God is the perfect being that Theists claim it is, MIGHT make them "blind" to the flaws of it presented in the scriptures.

Now, Although I have a lot of knowledge and understanding of the spiritual POV, There are many Ideas that are very smart and refreshing...
in The above story, i Have yet to encounter such... And this thread is my genuine try to find an answer that can shed some light on the dilemma presented.

If you think my conclusion is wrong, stop blaming me for trying to knock someone or something, rather educate me and set me straight...

And yes, Obviously I Debate things that are Wrong, Twisted And Delusional about religion.. These are the parts that bother me and I can't seem to understand how they don't bother others.
If you can answer the question rather than trying to avoid it, maybe you can actually change my mind ?

~;> perhaps we can entertain you
about this so called faith
as we have an understanding between atheist and theist

and
regarding unto your OP and
base unto this
questions of yours
if
Either Humans are nothing but a game to God.. and he grants Satan to do as he pleases with Job...
Either God was tricked by Satan to grant Satan Job as a test case
Either God doesn't really care about Job nor inflicting pain and misery has no meaning to God
Either God himself wanted to test Job and used the Devil as a tool...
you stand corrected
for thats your previlage unto this plane of existence
if we may say so

now
first thing first
there were so many gods in the bible
:read: (as it is written)
Deuteronomy 10:17
The LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, powerful, and awe-inspiring God. He never plays favorites and never takes a bribe.
18 He makes sure orphans and widows receive justice. He loves foreigners and gives them food and clothes.

Deuteronomy 10:17
For HaShem your G-d, He is G-d of gods, and Lord of lords, the great G-d, the mighty, and the awful, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
18 He doth execute justice for the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

if you could notice theres a difference of the language that was been used from the same verse
you could have an understanding between the two by searching the words which differ the term lord and god
Either God (which god) was tricked by Satan to grant Satan Job as a test case

and
to further our analysis unto this matter
:read: (so as it is written)
Psalm 82:1
A Psalm of Asaph. G-d standeth in the congregation of G-d; in the midst of the judges He judgeth:

Psalms 82:1
A Psalm by Asaph. God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.

as we lirerally see this verse which indicates some certains gods were been in the assembly or congregation of the true god
therefore
we could have understand
atleast that
Either God (or some gods) was tricked by Satan to grant Satan Job as a test case
Either God doesn't really care about Job nor inflicting pain and misery has no meaning to God
becaused some gods were not capable of
what the true god can do
unto its created beings
thats why
he even let some of them to insult him

see this verse and you'll see what we mean
:read: (with all your understanding and
put it unto your heart and soul)
Jeremiah 19:5
and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt offerings to Baal; which I did not command, nor spoke it, neither came it into my mind:

yeah which god did not command, nor spoke it, neither came it into his mind:
and
thats precisely understandable
and also
lets see in this verse if theres a difference from the verse that is written above
so that we may compare it
:read: (with all your heart and
with all your soul)
Jeremiah 19:5
and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for
burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spoke it, neither came it into My mind.

here we see literally again
that there is no difference from the message that god wants to tell us by means of this written words of god itself

by the way
you can answer the last question
if
Either God himself wanted to test Job and used the Devil as a tool...
in order for you to have some part
unto the
final saying about the written word of god
if we may say so


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[Tumah]

And BTW, What was my last post? The question about "What is the universe" ideas?

I recall it having something to do with the Garden of Eden, but I don't remember the details. I recall linking to you a long page of information on the subject.

 

[David1967]

Hi All,
Although I Don't believe that God is real, I do find the Bible a very intriguing book.

One story I really like is the story of Job,
I heard countless explanations about the story but honestly, None of them seems satisfying or genuine.

I would love hearing your thoughts about the story, about the role of the Devil in the story and about the fact that God is presented as a deity that was "Tricked" by the Satan.

For those who are not familiar with the story, in a nut shell:

Job is a very Righteous man who obeys Gods rules no matter what. He thus prosper and God provides him with richness (Both material and spiritual).

Incomes Satan, and dares God that Job only follows God because he have fortune and makes a bet with God that if it wasn't so (If Job's life were hard) he will surely stop believing and following God.

Surprisingly, God wants to prove Job's loyalty and allows the devil to harm Job, Job's family and Job's possessions.

Can't wait to hear some interpretations for the story.

Regards.

Well, I sincerely hope that the book of Job is a parable and not an actual event.

 

[Tumah]

I Think the fact that I'm an atheist and I in a section of Debate pretty much makes it obvious that I disagree with the theist POV.
But I Really am interested in understanding the theist POV.

I Was a theist... I Studied the bible quite a lot... and at the end of things, Always the answers I would get from ANY theist i debated was based on Faith alone.
I Understand the concept of Faith... As much as I would like to deny it, I Think everyone, no matter whether religious or not, have Faith regarding something...
The difference is I know Faith doesn't mean Truth...
And that's what intrigues me...
I try to learn Why for some people Faith is more important than Truth...
As i see it, The story of Job is an Example of that...

That the Faith that God is the perfect being that Theists claim it is, MIGHT make them "blind" to the flaws of it presented in the scriptures.

Now, Although I have a lot of knowledge and understanding of the spiritual POV, There are many Ideas that are very smart and refreshing...
in The above story, i Have yet to encounter such... And this thread is my genuine try to find an answer that can shed some light on the dilemma presented.

If you think my conclusion is wrong, stop blaming me for trying to knock someone or something, rather educate me and set me straight...

And yes, Obviously I Debate things that are Wrong, Twisted And Delusional about religion.. These are the parts that bother me and I can't seem to understand how they don't bother others.
If you can answer the question rather than trying to avoid it, maybe you can actually change my mind ?

That's not the point and I have no problem with you being an atheist or expressing, or debating any theological or Scriptural point. But that's not what you're doing when you start off your theory with a conclusion ("Any of the above, paints God in a questionable manner.") Then you're just showing your hand which is the intent to "paint G-d in a questionable manner."
Had you left that sentence out, I could have responded with a slightly altered version of option four, that - after an explanation of the theology behind the idea and discussion and debate of the points - you could have determined either did or not did paint G-d in a questionable manner. But your intent is not debate, so you throw out a question and get straight to the conclusion.

I don't want to be a party to a smear campaign, so I'll just move on.