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Scripturally, Do believers go to heaven?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by wmam, Feb 26, 2006.

  1. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    It is highly amusing to see so many of you speaking about a topic, as if you really knew what you were talking about. Very, very amusing stuff. Not realistic, but highly amusing.

    Frankly, if you knew, you would not say, as no one would understand the probable answer.
     
  2. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Just being a Christian, or just believing in Christ, is not enough to get you into the highest level of the Celestial kingdom, where Christ and the Father dwell. It takes more than that.

    100% of the commandments must be kept, and ALLthe proper ordinances must be performed, by those having the authority given them by Jesus Christ.

    All Christ's principles must be learned and obeyed.

    All Christ's ordinances must be performed, either in this life, or vicariously when you are dead. It is much better to do them now, so you won't have to wait for someone on earth to do them for you.
     
  3. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Here's another interpretation. Many Christians don't view this "third" heaven as an actual third level of heaven. Simply put...the third heaven IS heaven...with the "lower" heavens being space and the skies of the earth.
     
  4. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    As well as many that do not consider themselves as christians.

    Thanks dawny.............. You said what I was going to say. ;)

    Some believe as I that there is only one place that would be considered the abode of YAH,in terms of heaven,and that would be as of the third heaven. And as dawny stated, that the other two are space and the air where the birds fly. Now I believe that there will be like a rank and file type system in the Kingdom where those that wasn't as righteous as others will have to serve. I get this from the verse saying.............

    Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    So there will be those that are least and those that are great. But here in this verse it does not state multiple heavens as being the kingdom but rather implying one. I believe we will all, that are accepted, will be in one heaven together with explanation. Which will come later........... Hard to answer some of this and not give up the complete story here. ;) I like to see more dialog on this thus far before giving in to the temptation of spilling it all at once. :eek:
     
  5. shema

    shema Active Member

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    Matthew 13:44..The kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteaous and throw them into th e fiery furnace.....Matthew 13:44I will give you the keys of the kingdom of the heaven whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what ever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven..John 10:9I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved/kept safe..John 10:28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish...
     
  6. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Always refreshing to know I'm not alone. :)

    I agree with you. My mother and I were discussing the topic of heaven yesterday and we believe that for those who are heaven bound...all will go to the same heaven but their rewards will differ according to their works. So, my "heaven" may differ from anothers in that sense...but we'll exist in the same heaven.
     
  7. shema

    shema Active Member

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    I was just reading,and im finding 2 kings 2:1-18 talking about how elijah was taking up into heaven. and Jesus said he was the only one who went to heaven, ... no one has been to heaven except for the one who was sent from heaven.. Im thinking that there are different degrees to heaven.. Ive also heard something about seven heavens, but I have not read that in the scriptures, has anyone else heard something about this>?
     
  8. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Actually, Scripture says that Elijah was taken up as if to heaven. Exactly where he went is not really specified. Orthodox belief is that nobody is in heaven now and will not be until the Last Judgement, but that those who have passed on have a foretaste of heaven or hell. I don't see any evidence for multiple literal heavens, but then as we don't believe in the whole heaven and hell as places idea at all, that's hardly surprising.

    James
     
  9. shema

    shema Active Member

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    ok so if he didnt go to heaven then where did he go? surely he didnt vanish into thin air and surely he did not stay on earth, because elisha took his place,...
     
  10. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    I completely understand why this scripture would be interpreted this way.

    Here is another one.

    1 Corinthians 15: 40, 41 King James Version

    40- There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."

    41- There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    1 Corinthians 15: 40, 41 Joseph Smith Translation

    40- Also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial, and bodies telestial; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."

    41- There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    The King James Version is missing the glory of the telestial, which is basically reserved for those that have rejected the Father and his fullness, and his Son.

    The Joseph Smith Translation is based on unadulterated, or unaltered, original writings. By the time King James commissioned the text he possessed, to be translated, it had already been altered from it's original form.

    The celestial world, or glory, is basically for those that have accepted the Father and his fullness, and his Son.

    The terrestrial world, or glory, is basically for thase that have rejected the Father and his fullness, but have accepted his Son.

    The telestial world, or glory, is basically for those that have rejected the Father and his fullness, and his Son.

    Outer darkness is basically for those that have rejected the Father and his fullness, and his Son, and the Holy Ghost.

    Spirit prison and spirit paradise are basically holding points, where you recieve judgement, after being properly taught ALL Christ's principles, and have been given a chance to accept ALL of the eternal saving ordinances.

    You could break down spririt prison, to include all those that have rejected Christ, and spirit paradise, to include all those that have accepted Christ, as was clearly represented by the two thieves, whch were crucified with Jesus.

    These two groups of people, which will include all of us, at one point or another, are then judged, and sent to recieve their proper reward. One could evaluate themselves, based on this, and could get an idea where one might stand, in God the Father's eyes.
     
  11. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    I already said that it isn't specified. It's often (usually) better to just say 'I don't know' rather than scrabbling about trying to find explanations for everything, so, I don't know. Wherever all those who have passed away are. The thing is, that if you don't believe that heaven is a place (as we do not) then even the question of 'where' makes little to no sense.

    James
     
  12. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    The context does not suggest that "the third heaven" refers to the atmosphere around our globe, nor to outer space or to any parallel universes, The Bible often uses the number three to represent emphasis, intensity, or added strength. (Ecclesiastes 4:12; Isaiah 6:3; Matthew 26:34, 75; Revelation 4:8) so, what Paul saw in vision was elevated or exalted. It was spiritual.
     
  13. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Believing in God the Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, is a huge part of our salvation, but it's not enough. We must turn from sin, accept Christ's atonement, and accept the necessary eternal saving ordinances, which have been revealed and restored to earth once again, in order that we might live with both the Father, and his Son, in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

    Remember, the celestial kingdom, has three levels, in which one will be given the opportunity to progress from one level to the next, as long as one accepts the Father and his fullness, and his Son, there will be room to improve oneself, and progress.

    The Father and his fullness, or the fullness of the gospel, has been restored to earth, and is available for ALL to examine, and accept, or reject.
     
  14. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Amen to that.
     
  15. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    I'll never forget knocking on doors with my missionary companion, in Kawasaki, Japan, just outside of Tokyo, and periodically seeing pairs of JW Japanese housewives doing the same thing we were doing. I thought to myself, wow !! these guys really get around. We continued to cross paths in Yokohama, and other parts of Japan, and when I returned home to Salt Lake, they were the first to knock on my door, within days of returning home. We talked a lot about the soon return of Jesus Christ, which was just what I needed, at the time, to keep me going. I have a deep respect for you guys, and what you do. You have a great message, and you are fun to talk to, and you ALL seem to know your scriptures very well.
     
  16. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    LOL Yes JW are all over the world, ....... Matthew 24;14 and it is the message about the kingdom goodnews that makes me happy. i think householders can at times get us mixed up . but if i am correct , it is only the men that go door to door with your religion . but with the JW it is women as well. correct me if i am wrong
     
  17. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    FFH,

    I believe that the spirit prison IS hell and that those who existed in the times of Noah had the opportunity to hear the gospel because they did not have the gospel. They were living under an entirely different law. This was BEFORE God established his convenant with Moses.

    I do not feel that this applies to us at all now. Why? God established a convenant with Moses and those people were bound to those laws.

    Then Christ came and lived and died as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. We're already saved...if we CHOOSE it. We already have the gospel.

    Christ preached to those of the time of Noah because they did not live by a covenant as established with Moses and Israel and then our covenant under Christ.

    I believe in ONE heaven.

    We will each be rewarded DIFFERENTLY for our works...so in that regard, there will be different levels of reward but there's still only one heaven.

    There IS a celestial heaven and a terrestial heaven. You can go outside and see one of them right now.

    I respect your interpretations but I don't agree with you.
     
  18. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    It's implied.

    For a lot of Christians, John 3:16 and John 3:18 summarizes how salvation is obtained. And many Christians (like myself) view eternity as either being spent with the Lord (in heaven) or being cast down into the lake of fire.

    I take this from the NIV of the Bible.

    "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

    Where do we have eternal life? Heaven.

    "Whoever believes in him is not condemned but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" John 3:18

    If one does not believe...they are condemned...or go to hell.

    And...

    These are good, in Matthew.

    "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

    "Whoever acknowledged me before men, I will also acknowledge him before My Father in heaven. But however disowns me before men, I will disown before my Father in heaven." Matthew 10:32

    I can provide more...
     
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  19. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    thank you very much Dawny for answering my question:clap
    i think you are right, given the scripture you have quoted, that something will be given as reward, though the details are not explicit.
     
  20. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    All boils down to context and personal interpretation. :) There is much that forms the whole, kwim? :)
     
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