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Scripturally, Do believers go to heaven?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by wmam, Feb 26, 2006.

  1. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Um, last time I checked, eternal life WAS Heaven. And Hell is reffered to as death many times in Bible. What would the opposite of death=Hell be?
     
  2. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    I agree
     
  3. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    Oh well..........

    Buttercup............ That is fine by me if that is the way you want to be.

    Maybe if you say it three times it will come true for ya. ;)


    As for everyone else that is trying to be apart of this discussion and not destroy it, as some have tried, :rolleyes: I will say that I have yest to see where any of you have shown that we are promised to go to heaven when we die, or anytime after.


    Someone said that when we die if we are saved then we will be with the "lord" and they believed the "lord" to be in heaven so therefore they believed that we would be in heaven. Where is there any scriptural proof of this?


    Hint: Isn't it said somewhere about the kingdom of heaven being on earth?


    I'm waiting people.......... No one has yet produced evidence of any of us "ascending" to heaven. You know, that third one.


    As far as what any of you feel about me............ I could care less. No one can see through the screens in front of them as to the facial expressions, nor body language, of the one on the other side. I, after 12 years of playing on these stupid machines, have become tired of defending and explaining myself to what would otherwise be those that many would feel don't deserve to breath the same air. :D J/K......... I don't attack unless I feel as though I have been attacked. Yes I sin because I have a real hard time in turning the other cheek and believe in shoot first and ask questions later. Again J/K. :slap:
     
  4. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    I tried.........

    You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Mister_T again.

    As far as I am concerned .... you did. I don't think anyone was upset with you or thought you was being offensive although I can really only speak for myself for there are those that, as it seems, seeing another person offends them. ;)

    Funny how it seems that most of the time they are looking in the mirror. LOL :biglaugh:
     
  5. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    There is no evidence really anywhere for any kind of afterlife...For Judaism if you spend all ur time trying to earn tokens for a pass to the afterlife you'll miss the reason you are here...LIVING!


    that being said...where is there scripture that says we won't go to heaven?:sarcastic
     
  6. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to hold off on giving you an interpretation of this one, because I'm not quite sure what it is you're looking for. Maybe if you were to explain your interpretation, it would give me something to go on.

    Well, I don't necessarily take this literally, to begin with. If every person who ever said, "You fool!" was to go to Hell, I don't think there'd be anybody left for heaven. I think this verse is probably a warning to us that none of us is in a position to judge one another and that those who do will be judged even more harshly themselves. I see the phrase "hell fire" as representing damnation or eternal separation from the glory of God. I don't see it as referring to a literal place where we are physically burned by flames, but as a place where the wicked will be subject to eternal mental anguish and torment.

    I believe this verse to be referring to the Spirit Prison at all, but to the permanent Hell that some will be banished to after their resurrection. Remember, there is a period of time when the spirit exists apart from the physical body which lies in the grave. It is during this period of time that the spirits of the wicked reside in the Spirit Prison. By the time the body and spirit are reunited, it will be too late for repentence to take place. Since this verse refers to "both soul and body" as being in Hell, Hell in this instance is eternal.

    Both you and Buttercup continue to speak of the time spent in Spirit Prison as being a "second chance." While this may be the case for some, what about the billions of people for whom it is a "first chance"? Don't you believe a loving God would allow all of mankind to at least have a "first chance"?
     
  7. dorcas3000

    dorcas3000 Member

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    Yes, it says somewhere about the kingdom of heaven being on earth. I'm assuming though you're not referring to Jesus in the gospels when he says such things as "the kingdom is now at hand" and stuff like that.

    Revelation 21 speaks of a New Jerusalem coming FROM heaven down to earth, and an announcement that God will live with his people. This is after the old earth has 'passed away.' Now, i'm not one to speak intelligently on revelations or what 'heaven' really is, but here is my understanding of the New Jerusalem concept:

    God's intention is to fully restore humanity to himself. In order to do so, He must rid the earth of evil in some way. You have all this 'revelation' stuff, then the final judgement. The purpose of this judgement is not really punishment per se, but it is necessary in order for the earth to be restored, ie an unrepentent murderer is likely to screw up a perfect kingdom, so he must go. Where? Well, the Bible talks about a 'lake of fire' but I couldn't tell anyone what that means. But it sounds...not pleasant. Anyways, after the judgement, righteous souls live with God on 'earth' a perfect earth, with perfect bodies (no disease and whatnot) and no sin. It isn't sitting on a cloud or going to church all day, but it is life that is 100% good. That sounds heavenly to me.

    Ascending to heaven? Well, there's always 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

    I think this is what you are looking for. It seems like I've presented two opposing views of heaven in the Bible, but it's hard to pinpoint what heaven actually is. I believe in an afterlife, and I believe that 'heaven' is wonderful, no matter where and/or what it is.
     
  8. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    Shhhhhhhhhhhhh..................Not yet. Don't ruin it. :areyoucra
     
  9. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    Oh no.......... I don't believe that the kingdom is here yet. Theres plenty of Scriptural proof that shows those still searching, looking and standing watch for such. ;)

    Very good.............. Thank you for the input and your "Correct O' Mungo" reply.

    Oh your just fine. Trust me when I say "No one has the corner on, or the market on, the correct understanding" save YAH.

    Now theres a condensed version that is as close as one could get to that I could agree on with maybe only a couple of reservations possibly.

    Well......... here is where we differ somewhat..........

    I view this as it is written. Yahshua "descends" from "heaven". So He comes, what I and most would say, down from, and again as 2Co 12:2 refers to, the third heaven to what we call the first heaven where what we say is the air and the clouds, or better yet as.............

    Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

    reveals as the air as well as.............

    Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    shows as the first heaven where the air and clouds would be. where the birds fly.

    He then shouts with the voice of the archangel and a trumpet of Elohim and those that are dead. The ones that are dead and buried. Those that died and did so as is written by baptism of the water and the Spirit in the name of YAH our Elohim, Yahshua Ha Mashiach, and the Set-Apart Spirit, will rise first. Then those that are still alive but are born again by the baptism as above will rise together with the dead and be changed, transfigured, and be with Yahshua forever. No where does it say that He turned around and took all of them back to the third heaven...................

    I don't want to give up to much until all have a chance to discuss and interact with what has been given thus far.

    I believe heaven is as wonderful as it is written to be but I do not believe that we will be able to go to what is considered to be the third heaven. We agree on allot but we do have some differences. I like your honest and thoughtful reply and give frubals to you. :)
     
  10. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Last time you checked, eh? That's convincing.
     
  11. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Yes; Last time I checked the Bible. Nice argument by the way. How about you stop spitting out negetive comments and dodging questions that people ask you. If you can't answer them and/or back them up, then humble yourself and bow out.
     
  12. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    Just out of curiosity, Mister T, how would Yoda say, "What you talkin' 'bout, fool?!"
     
  13. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Heh. I'd have to think about that. I can tell you how he'd say "I pitty da fool". It would be something like "Pitty the fool, I do"
     
  14. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I'm following you and believe as you do.
     
  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    "Midheaven" and ‘extremities of heavens.’ The expression "midheaven" applies to the region within earth’s expanse of atmosphere where birds, such as the eagle, fly. (Re 8:13; 14:6; 19:17; De 4:11 [Heb., "heart of the heavens"]) but for the 144,000 who will be going to heaven to be with Jesus

    those who go to heaven will share with Jesus in his work. They go to heaven for that very purpose

    Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years revelation 20;6

    "As for us,our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ." (Philippians 3:20, 21; Romans 6:5; 2 Corinthians 5:1, 2)

    Jesus told his disciples: "Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom."—Luke 12:32. yes they are a little flock only 144,000 ,not like the other sheep who will inherit the earth

    And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd john 10;16

    in fact no man can number the other sheep

    (Revelation 7:9) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands............... hopefully i am one of the other sheep who are now a great crowd, but i am not going to heaven, but i still have to welcome Jesus as my king , he is the way.

     
  16. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    well...is there wmam? is there scripture that says we won't go to heaven as someone who believes?
     
  17. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    "Do you round the corners of your head or mar the corners of your beard?"

    I asked you nicely to wait and to not ruin the discussion. You may ask but I will not at this point and time answer whether the answer be yes or no and you may choose whatever answer you please. This in no way implies either a yes or a no and for you to assume my answer as either until I have answered would be plain stupidity. I will answer when I see fit. Not a moment sooner.

    "Well........................ Do ya?":D
     
  18. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    no i don't round the corners of my head and i have a very nice beard thank you very much

    well then don't answer,
    does anyone else have an answer to the question, scripturally where does it say that believers WON'T go to heaven?
     
  19. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Exactly, there are three levels in the Celestial kingdom. In order to get to the highest level, ALL Christ's principles must be accepted and obeyed, and ALL the necessary saving ordinances must be performed.
     
  20. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Evidence of a third heaven in scripture.

    2 Corinthians 12: 2

    "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven."
     
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