dorcas3000 said:
Yes, it says somewhere about the kingdom of heaven being on earth. I'm assuming though you're not referring to Jesus in the gospels when he says such things as "the kingdom is now at hand" and stuff like that.
Oh no.......... I don't believe that the kingdom is here yet. Theres plenty of Scriptural proof that shows those still searching, looking and standing watch for such.
dorcas3000 said:
Revelation 21 speaks of a New Jerusalem coming FROM heaven down to earth, and an announcement that God will live with his people. This is after the old earth has 'passed away.'
Very good.............. Thank you for the input and your "Correct O' Mungo" reply.
dorcas3000 said:
Now, i'm not one to speak intelligently on revelations or what 'heaven' really is, but here is my understanding of the New Jerusalem concept:
Oh your just fine. Trust me when I say "No one has the corner on, or the market on, the correct understanding" save YAH.
dorcas3000 said:
God's intention is to fully restore humanity to himself. In order to do so, He must rid the earth of evil in some way. You have all this 'revelation' stuff, then the final judgement. The purpose of this judgement is not really punishment per se, but it is necessary in order for the earth to be restored, ie an unrepentent murderer is likely to screw up a perfect kingdom, so he must go. Where? Well, the Bible talks about a 'lake of fire' but I couldn't tell anyone what that means. But it sounds...not pleasant. Anyways, after the judgement, righteous souls live with God on 'earth' a perfect earth, with perfect bodies (no disease and whatnot) and no sin. It isn't sitting on a cloud or going to church all day, but it is life that is 100% good. That sounds heavenly to me.
Now theres a condensed version that is as close as one could get to that I could agree on with maybe only a couple of reservations possibly.
dorcas3000 said:
Ascending to heaven? Well, there's always 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
Well......... here is where we differ somewhat..........
I view this as it is written. Yahshua "descends" from "heaven". So He comes, what I and most would say, down from, and again as 2Co 12:2 refers to, the third heaven to what we call the first heaven where what we say is the air and the clouds, or better yet as.............
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every
fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
reveals as the air as well as.............
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and
fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
shows as the first heaven where the air and clouds would be. where the birds fly.
He then shouts with the voice of the archangel and a trumpet of Elohim and those that are dead. The ones that are dead and buried. Those that died and did so as is written by baptism of the water and the Spirit in the name of YAH our Elohim, Yahshua Ha Mashiach, and the Set-Apart Spirit, will rise first. Then those that are still alive but are born again by the baptism as above will rise together with the dead and be changed, transfigured, and be with Yahshua forever. No where does it say that He turned around and took all of them back to the third heaven...................
I don't want to give up to much until all have a chance to discuss and interact with what has been given thus far.
dorcas3000 said:
I think this is what you are looking for. It seems like I've presented two opposing views of heaven in the Bible, but it's hard to pinpoint what heaven actually is. I believe in an afterlife, and I believe that 'heaven' is wonderful, no matter where and/or what it is.
I believe heaven is as wonderful as it is written to be but I do not believe that we will be able to go to what is considered to be the third heaven. We agree on allot but we do have some differences. I like your honest and thoughtful reply and give frubals to you.