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Scripturally, Do believers go to heaven?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by wmam, Feb 26, 2006.

  1. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    Condemned to what? And how can the person who has never been taught be held responsible for not believing? I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult. I guess I just believe that God is a bit more loving than this interpretation implies.
     
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  2. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    You're not being difficult, Squirt. :)

    But if you have any issues with this verse...your dispute is with Christ Himself...because these are HIS words, not my own.

    You have the right to do so. I'm inclined to accept the Word of God as truth.
     
  3. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    The way you explained things earlier Squirt, was very well done. I disagree, :D but enjoyed the humility of your post. Frubals to you for that breath of fresh air.
     
  4. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    She did do a really great job! :) I'd frubal her again if I could.
     
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  5. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    I agree, she did a great job, but alas, I too can't give out 2 sets in a row, so I'll just frubal you instead for your great points! You don't mind, do you? :D
     
  6. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL....................................

    You people are incorrigible. You all just got through tearing each other apart over spirit prison or whatever now you come here with everything but the OP. LOL I for one don't care. Even though I got a rather funny PM from a Mod about me not posting in that thread. LOLOL....................

    Anywho....................

    Here is kinda my own personal take on the subject.................

    There is a multi-level heaven system. 1 being the earths atmosphere, 2 being that of space with the stars and planets and so forth and 3 being that of the place of YAH and His kingdom.

    I find no where in Scripture where it is stated that we will go to that place where YAH is in the third heaven.

    Show me Scripture. Not what you think. LOL

    I can think as well and think of little green men running around saying that they all are god but I don't. LOL

    Jews and Christians of whatever faction do not hold the market on this so lets see some Scriptural proof ya'll. ;)
     
  7. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    You started the thread wmam.....shouldn't you be the first to post scripture? Then we can follow.
     
  8. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    I am so sorry buttercup. ............. I didn't realize that I was to follow your rules on how to start a thread. I apologize.

    MODS will you please delete all the post before the one I last posted that gave my own views so we won't make buttercup mad?

    Sorry buttercup....... I will do my best not to let this happen again.:slap:
     
  9. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    You assume incorrectly that I am mad. However, you started the thread asking for scripture to back up our points. I am merely asking you for the scripture you used to come up with your belief system. Is that not what we're all supposed to do including you as well?
     
  10. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    wmam...

    I would truly like to see the scripture which supports your claims.
     
  11. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    I have no dispute with Christ's words, dawny, only with the way in which you have interpreted them. :)

    If a person is tried for murder and is found guilty, he is a "condemned man." To this man, being condemned to death is quite a different thing than being condemned to life in prison. See what I'm saying? The scripture you have quoted says nothing about a non-believer being "condemned to Hell." Is it possible that he will be condemned to something lesser in severity?

    Also, God will not command anyone to do that which is impossible. For someone to believe something he has never been taught is quite impossible.
     
  12. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    Huh? :D Well, the frubals were deeply appreciated. I can use all of them I can get. Perhaps the next time dawny gives two great answers, you can give me one set of frubals for her!
     
  13. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    Where did I assume that you were mad? Huh? I did no such thing. I merely stated that we wouldn't want to make you mad.

    LOL

    Your a trip............

    Anywho...................

    First Scripture...........Just for you sweet Buttercup................

    Genesis 1:20 And Elohim said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    Are there any birds flying around in heaven, in YAH's abode, where we cannot see them, or are they simply flying above the earth, with the clouds, which here is referred to as heaven?

    2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in the Anointed above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: Elohim knoweth. such an one caught up in the third heaven.

    Ummmmmmmmmm..................

    Sounds like something beyond 1 or 2 therefore it must be YAH's abode. Leaves 2 for something in between. Space?

    But this goes much further but why spoil the fun? Why should I spill it all and make a mess? I think I will just spread it out like chicken feed. A little at a time so everyone has a chance to eat.

    Now I want to see some Scripture to prove it wrong. How about you start Buttercup. You being all anxious to jump right up with how this should all be done. Lets here your rebuttal. Remember........ Make it Scriptural. ;)
     
  14. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    No disrespect to Dawny but I can't help it. It is taking me a while to stop laughing at this Squirt. My ribs hurt. :biglaugh:
     
  15. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    I agree with Squirt. God is perfect. Hence, his love is perfect. Which means that his capacity to love is infinetley greater than our own and condemning someone who has never been taught about God is not an act of love. I feel that too many people take scripture at face value and don't apply reason and common sense to try and find the point that God is trying to make. The Bible as a whole is like a big parable and parables are ment to be approached with thinking. God gave us a brain to think and to reason. God wants us to question what we believe because it will make our faith that much stronger. Faith is a muscle, doubt and questioning are the weights. When it comes to our faith, God wants us to be body builders. If you just blindley accept and follow, and never question anything, your faith is poor.

    On a side note, I had a similar disscussion on another thread about God, Hell, Second chances, and his realtionship with us. These are my opinions and I wanted to share these posts because I believe they have revelence to this topic and would be helpful. Enjoy!

    "Oh absolutley! I believe that God judges what's in your heart rather then what you think. I believe If somebody has a good heart and they experience that that ultimate, in-your-face-truth, that they will be overwhelmed by God's goodness. They'll find that God and Heaven is everything they expected and a hundred times more. It's all about heart. You can abide by every rule, memorize the entire Bible, travel to all ends of the earth to preach the word of God, and abstain from from everything this world has to offer, and if you don't have a good intentions or a good heart, then your religion is dead. God wants to have fellowship with you. That's why you're here. Why wait to get to those pearly gates to experience Heaven when you have an oppurtunity to get a taste (although reletively small compared to the real deal) right now. And I think that out of all "religions" Christianity, although flawed, comes the closest to this truth makes the most sense. But you have to look passed the circus that is organized religion, and start using reason and common sense. God refers to the people of this world as his spouse many times in the Bible and I think that's how you should treat it. Put yourself in his shoes. How would you treat your spouse and how would you want your spouse to treat you? Once you apply the relationship concept to God it cuts out all of the B.S. that is being fed to us. He doesn't want you to kiss his butt just so you can get into Heaven. Which brings me back to the concept of Hell. If people STILL hate God after they are up in Heaven and experienced his love, then He honors their decision and sends them to Hell. When they get there they realize that Hell SUCKS compared to Heaven. And then they want to go back. But the reason they want to go back is only because they want all of the things that Heaven offers. NOT because they want to be with God. If God were to let them back into Heaven they would STILL HATE God. People (religious people are also included in this) want the things that God offers. Not God or his love. And it doesn't matter what you do, how you act, or what you think. What matters is what's in your heart."

    "I believe this is a good example of the selfish and self centered type of mindset that people in Hell have: I recall a story about a little 6 year old boy who was using a restroom at the beach. While the boy was in the stall a young man in his early 20's, approached the kid while he was in the stall and slit his throat. The boy died and the man was captured. They interviewed this man and they asked him why he brutally killed an innocent 6 year old boy. The man said this "Because I love it. And I'd do it again" Children are a shining example of the love of God and his kind, pure and loving nature. Children are purest human image of God (there is reference to this in the Bible). This man brutally took the life of a child. The most innocent and pure group of the of the human race. I'm not God and I'm in no position to judge, but I will make an exception for sake of argument and I would say this is a safe bet that this piece of sh*t does not love God and will never love God. HOW COULD YOU EVEN FATHOM DOING SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO A CHILD............this is why Hell exists. And I'm pretty sure he'll be going there.

    Hell is for evil and wicked people. People who would reject God are people who are selfish and self-centered to the most extreme. They don't care about others. They don't care if they hurt other people or how they make people feel. All they care about is fullfilling their own selfish pleasures and desires. All they care about is getting that "fix"; getting their needs met. Even if it is at the expense of other people's pain and discomfort."
     
  16. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    I am just your basic Protestant Christian and believe in ONE heaven:

    Deuteronomy 26:15 Look down from heaven, your holy dwelling place, and bless your people Israel and the land you have given us as you promised on oath to our forefathers, a land flowing with milk and honey.

    Psalm 2:4
    The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
    the Lord scoffs at them.

    Isaiah 63:15

    15 Look down from heaven and see
    from your lofty throne, holy and glorious.
    Where are your zeal and your might?
    Your tenderness and compassion are withheld from us.

    Daniel 5:23

    23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.

    Matthew 5:34

    But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;

    Matthew 6:9

    "This, then, is how you should pray:
    " 'Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name,

    Matthew 10:32

    "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.

    Mark 11:25

    And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

    18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

    Revelation 12:7-9

    And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

    Thanks for the frubals Jeffrey. :)
     
  17. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    She made some great points in quite a few posts that I agreed with. ;)
     
  18. dorcas3000

    dorcas3000 Member

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    John 3:17 needs to be read in context. A larger chunk:

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. "

    Whew, that was a lot. But to assert that verse 17 means that an individual is 'condemned' simply because he or she does not believe in Jesus would contradict the preceding verse. God did not send his son into the world to condemn it... We are all condemned because of sin, not because of what we don't believe. Everyone has sinned, the Good News of Christ is not that he condemns sinners but that he offers salvation to those willing to come into light and present themselves fully before God, sin and all. Those who stand condemned already are condemned because of sin - the same sin as everyone else. By refusing to acknowledge the gospel of Christ, they have prevented themselves from being redeemed. Any 'punishment' they recieve is not punishment for not believing. It is a just punishment for sin, and that is all.

    The gospel is Good News because it is a promise that if we repent before God and acknowledge the salvation through the blood, we need not fear condemnation for our sin. This is truely Good News!

    This is not to say that someone who doesn't profess Jesus as savior automatically is not saved. The Bible does not make that claim. I must have faith that God's judgement in this matter will be both just and loving. Could non-believers go to heaven? Possibly. But there is no guarantee in that. To live apart from God and simply hope that God will spare you is an awful way to live, IMO. Our peace as believers comes in part from that we know where we stand before God and have full assurance of our salvation. Our mission, therefore, is not to condemn others but to share a sure way of being right with God and confident faith. It is a beautiful, wonderful place to be in, this honest communion with God. We cannot understand the true essence of this Gospel without Jesus.
     
  19. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    I get it..............





    You got e-sword to. ............... LOL





    O.k. so you can search for one word and find many places in the Scripture that the word resides. Doesn't prove that there is only one heaven and doesn't disprove............2 Corinthians 12:2 I

    Did you know that the word "is", is in the KJV of the Scripture a total of 6992 times in 5475 verses?

    <--------- Thinking of posting them all. :D Just for Bill Clinton. Wonder which meanings he would make of each one of them?
     
  20. jeffrey

    jeffrey †ßig Dog†

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    And buttercup, you earned them! ;)
     
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