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Scripturally, Do believers go to heaven?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by wmam, Feb 26, 2006.

  1. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    I do see where it shows multiple heavens as it has been spoke of in this thread until the cows come home. I do not believe that the kingdom is here but rather it is in our midst and is coming........... There are way to many verses that show the disciples looking for the kingdom and still others saying that it is on its way............for this to be true then it couldn't already be here. There is one thing that I do agree with you on.............. It is very complicated for one that does not study the scriptures as well as one that does not live and breath them but still even more so for one to not have the guidance of the Spirit to show Truth and understandings of such. I believe that many can read day and night and still not understand what they have read but many think they do. Salvation is one thing and having eternal life yet another but where you will be when this all happens and where you will stay is the question at hand. Some believe as I that it will be in the Kingdom of YAH our Elohim here on earth while still others believe in a heaven far, far away. I find for myself real and true understanding of the one on earth but no where of the far and away.

    Shalom.
     
  2. Bick

    Bick Member

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    I believe that believers since the time of the Apostle Paul, continuing today, will, be resurrected, if dead, and those still alive will be changed, and both together will be caught away by Christ to go the heavenlies, or celestials.

    I believe this based upon 1 Corinthinians 15:51-56, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 which describe this event; Ephesians 1:3, which tells us that God has has prepared spiritual blessings for the Church/Body in the heavenlies; and 2:6, we will be seated, potentially, with Christ in the heavenlies.
    Bick
     
  3. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    the bible tells us that 144,000 will be going to heaven to rule with Christ Jesus, And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
    but the bible tells us that Jesus has other sheep who are not part of the little flock of 144,000 , these other sheep will inherit the earth."Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom."—LUKE 12:32.
    And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. John 10;16
    After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb." revelation 7;9-10 yes this great crowd will inherit the earth.
    But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,​
    And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. psalm 37;11
     
  4. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Believers in what/whom? It depends on the object of the belief/faith. If the belief in in Christ death and resurrection, my answer is yes and there is many evidences of this assurance in the biblical record (Holy Bible). Believers in Christ have blessed assurance that they will have eternal life in His kingdom.
     
  5. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    All believers? Or only one's who believe in your speicific version of Christ?
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    2 Corinthians 12:2 states, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven." If there is a third heaven, there must also be a first and second heaven. I suspect, though, that these "heavens" are actually more along the line of "aspects of heaven," as you call it. I would call these "degrees of glory," and Paul does speak of them in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42. "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." Since he compares the glory to the sun, moon and stars to each other, and then to the resurrection of the dead, it appears that in the resurrection, some resurrected beings will be glorified to a greater degree than others. These various degrees of glory could well be the "aspects of heaven" you mention.

    Also, the phrase "the heaven of heavens" is mentioned a number of times in the Old Testament. Deuteronomy 10:14 is one example. It seems to imply something like a higher heaven within heaven. It says, "Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is."
     
  7. Bick

    Bick Member

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    May, if you will read Rev.7 carefully, John in his vision is on earth, and the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel, are given a seal to protect them from the woes to follow. They will not go to heaven, they will be servants of Christ Jesus, first to witness during the last of the 7 year tribulation period, then to co-rule with Jesus when He returns as Messiah, and establishes His kingdom for 1000 years on earth.

    Also, you are pulling verses, seemingly at random, without considering the context.
    Read Luke 12:22-35 and you will see that Jesus is addressing his disciples during his earthly ministry. They are the 'little flock', not the 144,000. As His disciples, they will enter the kingdom to come on earth, the hope of Israel, because they will be resurrected at it's beginning.
    There are different views as to who "other sheep" are in John 10:16. IMO, Jesus is speaking of new Jewish disciples after His ascension to heaven, as described in Acts. I believe it is to these that Peter, who was told by Christ to "feed my sheep", wrote his two letters.
    As for Rev. 7:9-17, it follows Hebrew practice to write of future events in the present tense, and will occur after Jesus return to earth as Messiah. Yes, they will inheirit the land.

    Bick
     
  8. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    What specific version would you be referring to? I believe in Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God The Father who died for our sins and was resurrected with all power in His hand. What version would you be refering to?
     
  9. Bick

    Bick Member

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    Hi Katzpur: A concordance is a wonderful tool that many times can unravel Biblical mysteries (at least for me). In the OT the word translated "heaven"in practically every case, is actually "shamayim" in Hebrew, meaning literally, "heaved up things", from Young's Concordance. So, a more literal translation might be "the birds fly in the heavens"; or "God who is in the heavens". So, the atmosphere could be called "heavens" or "skies"; and one could say "the stars are in the heavens".
    But in the Greek scriptures, the root word is "ouranos", meaning "heaven". A great many times it is in the plural: every time "kingdom of heaven" should be "the kingdom of the heavens". And practically every time (I only went through Matt.) when Jesus refers to His Father, He is said to be "in the heavens". I found this out in a Greek-English Interlinear NT by George Berry.

    Must close now, Bick
     
  10. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    it is my belief as one of JW that the book of revelation is happening right now, we are now in the lords day ,Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment in 1914 inline with bible prophecy and chronology. and yes the little flock included the disiples that Jesus spoke too, in fact all of the early disiples were a part of the 144,000 who will rule as kings and priests with Jesus christ in the heavenly kingdom of God
    (Revelation 5:10) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."​


    (Revelation 20:6) Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years..... yes Gods heavenly kingdom goverment is now well established in the heavens, and it is ready to go into action very shortly as Daniel 2;44 tells us

    "And in the days of those kings (human rulership)the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms,(human goverments) and it itself will stand to times indefinite; yes its all happening in this time of the end , and me , as one of the great crowd spoken of in revelation 7;9-10 i am waving my symbolic palm branch to welcome Jesus as the reigning king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment and it is my hope that i will come through the GREAT TRIBULATION that will happen on the earth.
    "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb...revelation 7;14


    (Matthew 24:21) for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.

    (Mark 13:19) for those days will be [days of] a tribulation such as has not occurred from [the] beginning of the creation which God created until that time, and will not occur again............ yes i am putting myself on Jesus side by recognizing him as King of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment . the great crowd without a number, are now being gathered , but the 144,000 who are the little flock have a number because Jehovah predestined that number, he did not predestine the individuals who make up that number, but he wanted 144,000 to make up the kings and preists that would rule in the heavens with Jesus christ . he chose them , but some may not have endured and they may have given up in the race to life, so then he would chose someone else , he wanted 144,000 and that is the number Jehovah wants in the heavenly kingdom, but the great crowd is now on going , who knows how many in the end will put their trust in Jesus as king of Jehovah Gods kingdom.



     
  11. Bick

    Bick Member

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    May, you are wrong. The book of Revelation ( which should be named "the Unveiling of Christ", for "apokalupsis" in Greek means: "to unveil" or "reveal"), is still in the future, as John, the writer, says in 1:3 "this prophecy".

    Also, John clarifies it when in 1:10, he writes, "I came to be in spirit in the Lord's day". He is speaking of the 'Day of the Lord', prophecied in so many OT books, but now the emphasis is the Lord's Day, which is unfolding to John in this vision.

    And back in 1:1, the literal rendering reads: "The unveiling of Jesus Christ, which God gives to him, to show to his slaves what must occur swiftly." CV. Not "must occur soon". In the original Gk it is "en taxei", "in haste".

    JW's as well as many others, believe Revelation started back at the time of John's writing it, and IMO, this causes so much confusion. In Revelation, we read of the events leading up to Jesus the Messiah returning in power and great glory to destroy his enemies marching against Jerusalem and His people, Israel. They will be the kingdom of priests in the millennium, as head of the nations, and will be used by Christ to evangelize the earth.
    But, just think, May, God has a special group being called out since the time of Paul the Apostle: the Church which is the Body of Christ. God has predestined a certain number and one of these days it will be filled, as Paul tells us in Rom.11:25. And the marvelous thing is our blessings are in the heavenlies, not on earth. And that's all because Jesus as the Son of God came down to earth and died on the cross for our sins, was buried and was resurrected, and is now at the right hand of God. Think of it, the church/body will be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. Read Ephesians chapts. 1-4. In the heavenlies we will be witnessing to the principalities, authorities, and powers--spirit beings--the multifarious wisdom of God, in His kindness and grace to us in Christ.
    All for now, Bick
     
  12. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes the book of revelation means an unvailing or uncovering and that is most certainly happening in this .....The lords day............... it really is being revealed in these the last days ........thrilling times indeed. the kingdom is now well established in the heavens and has been since 1914 inline with bible prophecy and chronology. many things are being revealed to Gods people in these the last days.The sacred secrets of God and other "mysteries" of the Bible, such as that of Babylon the Great, are therefore things, not to be kept secret forever, but to be revealed by Jehovah God in his own time to those who look to him and to whom he chooses to reveal them.
     
  13. Moriah Hill

    Moriah Hill Member

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    It only matters what God says. He sets the rules not us. We can philosphise and rationalise things, reason and have our own opinions. He says that anyone who believes in Jesus shall be saved. Simple as that. Believe though isnt just mental agreemant or intectual ascent, but a life devoted to Him and what he says. We've got to live it.
     
  14. ProfLogic

    ProfLogic Well-Known Member

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    Believers might be the ones headed for eternal damnation since they believe in a self proclaimed god who kills and murders and also commands believers to adore it.
     
  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes ,you are right it only matters what God says,and yes he does set the rules,but he also says in the bible that in the last days the true knowledge will become abundant . yes the sacred secret and the understanding about it, has been revealed down through the ages . yes its all happening in this time of the end.
    As time has passed, Jehovah has made more revelations about the Seed , spoken of in Genesis 3;15
    And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel......... yes the bible, from the first book Genesis ,to the last book of the revelation, is all about the first ever prophecy in the bible. Genesis 3;15 that is the theme that runs through the whole of the bible . and it sure has been revealed to those who Jehovah wants to reveal it too
    "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant Daniel 12;4..... yes Jehovah in his own time reveals many things to those who he chooses
    "Do not interpretations belong to God? Genesis 40;8
     
  16. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    And there are those believers who believe in a loving God who does not want any to be destroyed,
    Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."—2 Peter 3:9;
    Although the Kingdom came to power in 1914, Jehovah did not immediately destroy those who were not serving him. How glad we can be of that! For God’s long-suffering has afforded us the opportunity to take a firm stand for his kingdom, and so escape destruction. and then the promise of a better world with no more wicked people around is what we can be a part of.
    (Matthew 25:46) And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.".............. yes, what a loving God to give us all the chance of better things . no more wars ,crime, murder, evil things. the Almighty God Jehovah has set everything in to place ,and it will come true . yes its all happening in this time of the end. the end of wickedness , and the making of all things new
    "The One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’ Also, he says: . . . ‘These words are faithful and true.’"—REVELATION 21:5.
     
  17. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    Belief in whatever you like..........Of course for the thread here I would suggest that this belief have some sort of "heaven" as part of its doctrine.

    Would I then be correct in assuming that you believe that His Kingdom is Heaven? If so, where is it? Everywhere I see the word heaven in Scriptures it has to do with one of the three and no where do I see that we are promised to go to the third one. Please explain.
     
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