Scrap capitalism? *dives out of window*

[Phasmid]

A quick and interesting video on the economic crises and it's causes. A friend linked me to it, I'm no expert on the economy but I thought the points raised in this video would lead to some good discussion amongst our members here... which is exactly what the video encourages at the end.

[youtube]qOP2V_np2c0[/youtube]
YouTube - RSA Animate - Crises of Capitalism

 

[Requia]

Shouldn't we actually try capitalism before scrapping it?

 

[Dunemeister]

We've tried and rejected capitalism.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I want to do a few more laps around the capitalist board and retire rich. What is wrong with that? I guess I have always been the problem. Back in the 80's I was involved in organised labor. When that dried up, I went back to school, got my MBA and became an evil capitalist.

In a nut shell, I have followed the money. I have worked hard and enriched myself.

Let's say for a moment that I decide to drink the kool-aid and become a socialist. I don't see any incentive to do anything but sit on my butt and eat my ration of food like cattle in a field.

I gotta tell you, I want more in life than a bare existence. I would find life very boring being reliant on the government for my next meal.

 

[Father Heathen]

Fascinating straw man. :sarcastic

 

[Troublemane]

Fascinating straw man. :sarcastic

Exactly. He claims the problem is capitalism, yet he (the disembodied voice in the cartoon) either has no clue how money really works or he is being willfully obtuse. Marxism has never worked, and all he is doing is calling what happened the failure of 'capitalism' as a means to support his 'alternative', which is a bad joke.

(marxism itself is a bad joke)

I think what the guy is trying to say, if only he had the right understanding, is that FIAT CURRENCY is the problem. He is right in that labor produces wealth. He is wrong however to say that capital was the cause of the crisis. I think the real point is that it was not capital, it was fiat currency which the Fed can create out of nothing, and continues to do at an increasing rate, to serve the vast governmental machine, is what wrecked the economy and continues to keep it operating at a highly repressed rate.

Here's a basic tutorial on where money comes from. And why these crashes are guaranteed to continue as long as fiat currency is in use.

[youtube]vVkFb26u9g8[/youtube]
YouTube - ‪Money As Debt (1 of 5)‬‎
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YouTube - ‪Money As Debt (2 of 5)‬‎
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YouTube - ‪Money As Debt (3 of 5)‬‎
[youtube]3qicabStQkc[/youtube]
YouTube - ‪Money As Debt (4 of 5)‬‎
[youtube]7kpSbkaD4tM[/youtube]
YouTube - ‪Money As Debt (5 of 5)‬‎

 

[Crosis]

Have you seen the movie "City of Ember"? Basically, there's an underground city that's been isolated for a long time, and is utterly dependent on an enormous machine in order to survive. But the machine is very old and coming closer and closer to its inevitable demise, and everyone knows it. In fact, the builders themselves knew that it would eventually break down and when. The plot of the movie is to escape the city before it breaks and everyone dies.

Anyways it makes a good analogy. They keep trying to fix the machine and they do over and over again, however everyone know it wont last much longer.

This is what's going on with the monetary system today. The technicians are fixing it over and over again. It's complicated, and no one else really understands how it works. They tweak things here and there, and all we do is wait.

when money is the problem not capitalism,socialism ,its that the money is being wasted on things that are not sustainable.

 

[Alceste]

Ooh, I love RSA! Those are fun. I think capitalism as a moral principle and ethical framework should be scrapped, certainly. Our society is completely deranged and degraded by our effort to find moral righteousness in the lust for material wealth. Capitalism (in the form of business ownership) as a simple method of attaining independence and covering the basic necessities of life is not a problem. Capitalism became a social illness when we elevated the market over all other concerns and began to worship it as a god, or at least when we elevated those who worship the infallibility of the market to positions of immense wealth and power.

 

[LuisDantas]

Frubals for that post, Alceste.

 

[Sunstone]

I want to do a few more laps around the capitalist board and retire rich. What is wrong with that? I guess I have always been the problem. Back in the 80's I was involved in organised labor. When that dried up, I went back to school, got my MBA and became an evil capitalist.

In a nut shell, I have followed the money. I have worked hard and enriched myself.

Let's say for a moment that I decide to drink the kool-aid and become a socialist. I don't see any incentive to do anything but sit on my butt and eat my ration of food like cattle in a field.

I gotta tell you, I want more in life than a bare existence. I would find life very boring being reliant on the government for my next meal.

The irony is you propose to get more to life than a bare existence by pursuing an non-sustainable economic model. Interesting. Ours may be the last generation that has the luxury of believing our lifestyle can go on forever.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The irony is you propose to get more to life than a bare existence by pursuing an non-sustainable economic model. Interesting. Ours may be the last generation that has the luxury of believing our lifestyle can go on forever.

All the more reason to take advantage of it while the opportunity is there.

 

[Sunstone]

All the more reason to take advantage of it while the opportunity is there.

The more we take advantage of the situation by destroying the earth, the worse will be the ultimate outcome.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The more we take advantage of the situation by destroying the earth, the worse will be the ultimate outcome.

Everybody else is doing it. My individual contribution would be irrelevant, so I'd rather maximize my life experience than suffer due to a meaningless ideological gesture.

But I've always been a pragmatist. I admire those who are ideologically-driven, and support and encourage their decision to make personal sacrifices for the larger good. Kudos to them.

 

[Sunstone]

Everybody else is doing it. My individual contribution would be irrelevant, so I'd rather maximize my life experience than suffer due to a meaningless ideological gesture.

But I've always been a pragmatist. I admire those who are ideologically-driven, and support and encourage their decision to make personal sacrifices for the larger good. Kudos to them.

The facts will out.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The facts will out.

I'm unfamiliar with this colloquialism. Or is it a mistake?

 

[Sunstone]

I'm unfamiliar with this colloquialism. Or is it a mistake?

No mistake. I'm just saying time will tell, reality will prevail, etc.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

No mistake. I'm just saying time will tell.

Ah, thanks.

I guess I don't understand your comment in the context of my post though.

 

[Sunstone]

Ah, thanks.

I guess I don't understand your comment in the context of my post though.

Well, I'm not directly addressing your post, which so far as I know was about your values. Values are values. Instead, I was addressing the larger question of whether capitalism is a sustainable economic system. I don't believe that capitalism as it is now practiced is sustainable, and I believe time will show that to be the case.

Now, I think some form of capitalism might be sustainable, but not the form we currently practice and which is being adopted everywhere from India to China. And I believe the more intensely we practice the current model, the sooner it will destroy our quality of life. But time will tell whether I'm right or wrong about any of that. After all, I could be wrong.

 

[T-Dawg]

I gotta tell you, I want more in life than a bare existence. I would find life very boring being reliant on the government for my next meal.

And THAT'S exactly why most people wouldn't be like a cow in the field under a socialist system. That's the incentive you're looking for - most people are unsatisfied with bare existence, so they put effort into the system to become more.

 

[LuisDantas]

I was actually surprised when I learned what "classic" capitalism was supposed to be. It is not meant to be sustainable. It is almost like it does not want to make Marxism look too inviable by comparison.

Previously, I assumed that there would be some common sense thrown in for good measure. Following a system that is basically intent on destroying the planet is simply insane, even if it turns out that one benefits in the short term from that.