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Featured scientific word for Biblical Filament in Genesis 1: Universe in the Nutshell

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by questfortruth, Apr 13, 2019.

  1. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    If you’re Christian and accept scripture as reality, it’s a massive solid vault over the expanse of sky.
     
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  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Which at present is estimated to be about 46 billion light years. And even farther yet is the immense body of water lying above the dome. Gotta wonder how many cups of tea it would make.

    Or Spiritual Hate and Anger. It's really a crap shoot isn't it; being able to make of it what one wishes. But in as much as there's no qualifier of this water, there's no reason to think it's anything but plain ol' H₂O.

    .
     
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  3. questfortruth

    questfortruth Active Member

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    Question: Just how far above Earth does this vast dome extend, and what the heck are these waters that lie above it?

    Answer: The radius of Observable Universe, waters above the firmament might be another word for Spiritual Food and Drink, Spiritual Wisdom. The spatial shape I prove below dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 is totally flat, just the Pythagorean theorem. One should show, that also the temporal geometry near Earth is totally Flat: -c^2 dt^2+dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2. From it comes the intuitive and Biblical feeling, that the material, earthly world must be Flat: not "Flat Earth", but "Flat at Earth".
     
  4. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Must be amazing to have a model with no mass at all. How does that apply to the real world?
     
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  5. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Yes, firmament mean sky.

    Other translations used “expanse”, “vault”, “dome”.

    And the sky only indicated the “observable sky” as in what the ancients could see when they look up, without any optical instrument, eg no telescope.

    So what they “can view” (only with the naked eye) are clouds, some of the observable planets, some meteorites which they mistakenly believe to be stars, some the nearest stars...and even fewer fuzzy spots, which no one knew were different galaxies (eg Andromeda and Triangulum).

    No one who lived in the Bronze Age or the Iron Age (particularly those wrote the Genesis in the mid-1st millennium BCE (or at the earliest, late 7th century BCE), or even the Middle Ages understood that what they were seeing in their sky, weren’t the galaxy, let alone the entire universe.

    Even with the invention of the “telescope”, all telescopes before the 20th century...or to be precise, BEFORE 1919, and BEFORE Edwin Hubble use the Hooker Telescope...every astronomers thought the Milky Way, including Charles Messier who catalogued the observable objects in the night sky, thought the Milky Way was the entire universe.

    Messier mistakenly labelled some of the objects like Andromeda, Triangulum, Messier 87 (or Virgo A), and some others as nebulous objects as nebulae in the Milky Way itself, when in fact, these were really separate galaxies.

    It was Hubble in 1919, who saw that that these falsely labels of nebulae were actual galaxies distinct from the Milky Way.

    From then (1919) onward, modern astronomy recognized the universe is lot more larger and more massive than they previously knew. Over the next one hundred years, astronomers keep rewriting history, as they uncovered more and more about the universe.

    Despite what questfortruth claimed, there are no model of the universe, by using the Genesis’ firmament, as a mean of understanding the universe.

    As I and everyone else understand the firmament, the firmament is nothing more than what we can see like the ancient authors see without telescopes, is a very limited number of stars, and some planets, in our night sky, and only the sun and moon during the day.

    So not much at all. The ancient Jews didn’t understand the universe, and for much of Christian history before the 20th century, they knew know no better. The whole “water above” or the “firmament” is nothing more than broken crock.
     
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  6. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    You're a pretty smart guy. What was your training in?
     
  7. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    You mean as in qualifications and experiences?

    I have none, none in astronomy or modern cosmology.

    I just read a lot, and have wide interests in many areas that I have no expertise in.

    The qualifications I do have are my degrees in 1985’s civil engineering and my 1999’s computer science.

    History and astronomy have always being my side-interests, like hobbies. Particularly of ancient history, more focused on ancient Greeks and Babylonians. But I have no qualifications in history.

    But my main interest or what you would call labour of love is mythology. Even then, I have no qualification in mythology, so I am an amateur mythologist.

    I have my own small library of translated ancient and medieval literature with themes on myths, legends and folklore. I have website called Timeless Myths, which I did a lot of read and research and built up, from 1999 to 2006.

    I used to have another website called Dark Mirrors of Heaven, but it was closed down because I stopped paying my renewal that hosted my website, so Timeless Myths is the only operating one. This site focused on alternative myths to that of Genesis creation, eg from the books of Enoch and Jubilees, from the Gnostic Nag Hammadi codices, and the rabbinical literature, like the Midrash and the Aggadah.

    Edit, I accidentally press the Post button. Sorry.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Well you are impressive,,

    Let me see if I can find Timeless Myths.. Sounds interesting,
     
  9. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    anyway, it my experience in reading and with working with ancient literature (mythological-themed), that I got better understanding of Genesis, that I didn’t possess as a teenager.

    I now viewed the creation in Genesis, not only as a myth, but as allegory which are meant to be interpret as moral message, not as history or science.

    The moral message behind the Eden episode, don’t sin against God or don’t disobey God, and take responsibility for your own action.

    Since 2000, I have reviewed my take on the Bible.
     
  10. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I made add Dark Mirrors of Heaven to Timeless Myths, so people can revisit it, but first, I want to rewrite it a bit, a slight redesign.
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    What a cool website.. Celtic fairies and all. Thanks.
     
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  12. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Thank you.

    I don’t include translations at Timeless Myths, but I do read my sources (translations), and try to put the different versions together. So the myths are “retelling”, not translations.

    I tried to make it as accurate as I can with my retelling, but it is not easy to do with so many versions of the same myth.

    In term of design. It is nothing fancy, like using html 5, with animation and all. My website looks primitive or to be nice, “retro” looking.
     
  13. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    My point, regarding to “training”, I learn things as I go.

    Before 2003, I knew nothing about evolution, because as i have said to you, my background with my engineering and computer degrees, they have nothing to do with biology.

    So when I first joined a forum in 2003, I was cluessless, didn’t know what they were talking about in the creationism vs evolution arguments. So I read up evolution from me borrowing my cousin’s first year biology textbook, which have some chapters on evolution.

    I have always being interested in astronomy and I wanted to be an astronomer hen I was 9, but no local universities taught astronomy. But to learn about the universe or the cosmology, I have to read about Relativity and Quantum Physics, which were never parts of either courses I did, so I had to learn these on my own, in my free times.

    When I was 16, I wanted to become architect, but only few universities offered degrees in architecture, so not many spots were available for thousands of students, but I did get into civil engineering. During my works as civil engineer, I did work with some architects and their design firms, whom I had learned a lot. But most of works on engineering were roadways and storm water pipes. Not very interesting.

    What got me interested in computers, and changed in career, was that I used AutoCAD, which is a computer program that assist engineers and architects with design and drafting. That got me interested in computer programming.

    You can learn something new, if you are prepared to focus it during free times.
     
    #33 gnostic, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  14. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    If you have to read that much into it... *Shrugs*
     
  15. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    questfortruth’s analogy of food and drink, is no better than the Genesis’ “water above” analogy.

    And the firmament isn’t about the observable universe; it is only a very tiny fraction of the observable universe.

    Our eyesight has only a very limited range of vision.

    The optical telescope helped with extending our range of visions, but it is limited by the size of aperture and the qualities of the lens and mirrors. And the radio telescopes allowed us to observe further, but even these have limitations of what we can observe.

    Putting a telescope with optical and EM capabilities (eg microwave, infrared, X-ray,etc) is even better, but again still limited.

    No ancient stargazers can see more of the universe than what we can see today, so for questfortruth to use the silly bible verse about firmament as a model for understanding the universe, is just plain absurd.

    And it required questfortruth to do awfully impossible mental gymnastics or contortions, to distort both science and his holy book to meet halfway.
     
  16. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    According to the Genesis narrative, it is on the second day that the Lord calls for a "firmament" to be in the "midst of the waters" to divide the waters: Or to divide that Solar nebula Cloud, from the Galactic nebula Cloud.

    "And God said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (or within) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day." (Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

    The term "firmament" according to the Creation account, is taken from the Hebrew: רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah, which is defined by many scholars as an expanse, or the visible arch of the sky:—firmament, but a primitive root; “רָקַע raqa` raw-kah” means, to pound, hammer, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

    The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure, and in some modern Bibles many modern scholars translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault". The Hebrew language appears to imply that the firmament is a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament, which can now be seen as the spherical cloud of comets (Icy vault) in which our solar system was created from the solar nebula cloud that was divided from the greater galactic nebula cloud.

    "And God said, “Let there be lights within the firmament or vault to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

    (Genesis 1:14-16 KJV) This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars=planets of our solar system, are "within" the firmament. Therefore, the waters that are "above the firmament=dome/vault" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars=planets of our solar system, revealing that the waters which are referred to in Psalms 148:4; "Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens," belong to the greater galactic nebula cloud which has become our Milky Way Galaxy.

    The Oort cloud, or the Opik-Oort cloud, which is named after Jan Oort, is a spherical cloud that surrounds our solar system, a cloud of predominantly icy objects such as comets that are comprised of mainly hydrogen, oxygen=water, ammonia and methane, and extends up to about a light year from the sun and defines the cosmographical boundary of our Solar System and the region of the suns gravitational dominance. Here is the Firmament, the great spherical vault within which is found the sun, moons and planets of our solar system, the dome of ice above us.

    Knowing that the planets of our solar system were already created before the sun came into existence when the hydrogen nuclei within the condensing solar cloud started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy thereby creating our sun, we must now ask the question, “Did life on earth begin to evolve before the creation of the sun?” As is recorded in the Bible. And can life exist without sunlight?
     
  17. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    Still over-complicating something rather simple. *Shrugs*
     
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  18. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    What is your issue with the "waters above" the solid vault, mentioned in Genesis?
     
  19. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Absolutely, none whatsoever.

    I actually agreed with your interpretation of the firmament. The firmament can mean dome or vault or even expanse.

    My problem are with questfortruth and The Anionted, or more specifically with their interpretations of what the firmament is.

    For [email protected] Anointed post:

    He are making up with his interpretations of the Genesis.

    Where is the mentions of any cloud in Genesis 1:1-2 or in 1:5-8?

    No clouds were ever mentioned, be they what we see in our atmosphere, or that of clouds of galactic nebulae or stellar nebulae.

    The Anointed is trying so hard to push more meaning in these verses than what the verses are actually saying.

    Like you have in your reply to him, he is over-complicating the Genesis’ verses.

    That’s where my problems.

    The other problems are that, in The Anointed’s reply is the nebula.

    It is clear that The Anointed have no ideas what the nebulae are.

    He should at least learn the basics, like star formation, red giant/white dwarf stars and supernovae, because they are all related.

    All The Anointed has done in his post, is make himself look uneducated, or worse, lying through his teeth.
     
    #39 gnostic, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  20. questfortruth

    questfortruth Active Member

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    There is Baryonic matter ("mass"). It satisfies the Einstein Equations in the presence of Dark Matter. Just describe the DM by an arbitrary energy-momentum tensor. Even such, which violates energy conditions. Nobody will notice violation: DM does not directly interact with Baryonic matter. I have written the book about it, but book is about 50 USD. Nobody has read it.
     
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