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Scientific advances in abiogenesis

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Bravo. :) This much only can be said from POV of empicism. Science, I believe, is vaster.

What you are saying is that a group of chemicals act in some synergistic fashion, following certain Kinetic equation, and there is production of consciousness -- slow at first, rapid in middle ages, again slowling down and vanishing with death. At its simplest form, this is first order chemical kinetics, governing generation of consciousness.

Huh?!?!?! This is a simplistic meaningless statement of the actual scientific view of abiogenesis, and the evolution of consciousness is not the subject of the thread.

So. Let us assume that you are correct and let us assume that we know the critical ingredints and conditions that enable this production of consciousness. In that case,

Again and again and again . . . you are leaping simplistically OFF TOPIC of the thread. The topic of the thread is abiogenesis, NOT the evolution of consciousness in this thread. Please stay on topic.

[/quote] would you say that the chemicals are the object and subject both? Then who are you and what is your competence to know your source? In short, what is the mechanism of this grand production?[/QUOTE]

The chemicals are the object and the subject, The mechanism of the 'grand productions' is natural law.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Uh no i didnt. Ok i am talkimg to a creationist.
Uh, yes you did as I have clearly shown.

Your posts and responses are laughable.

You post nonsense and then, when called out on your BS, you duck and dodge.

You call me and others creationists and theists which is laughable. It is clear from your clay arguments that you are the creationist. Do you try to hide it because you are ashamed?

Many of your posts are literally incoherent ramblings except when they are cut and pastes.

I'll ask again, can you explain why you, who allegedly has a college degree, would post an article that contradicted your own argument?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Truthfully, I don't get how you use the words 'subject' and 'object' here.

Subject is the conscious aspect that 'sees/knows'. Object is the insentient thing/aspect that is 'seen'. Chemicals are the insentient 'seen' objects.

I *am* the various chemical processes in the sense that *I* only exist when those processes exist and have certain properties.

The seen objects do not say "I am". This is a hypothesis without any basis whatsoever. Without consciousness no object can ever be known. So, to reduce the consciousness that cognises, to a thing that is a seen object, is foolish, IMO. It is a category error. No chemical singly or jointly exhibit/s property of life or consciousness. Chemicals do not say "I am".

The claim, as above, that "I am" is the various chemical processes has no basis -- empirical or logical. It is a sorry story.

I have 'competence to know' because of how humans (including me) evolved: our senses developed to give us information about the world around us. ....

But that is what I refute. An intelligence created of 'dust' by a mechanism cannot understand the mechanism.

I have no problem with 'Origin of Species'. But there is no evidence of origin of life-consciousness from insentient chemicals. It is not science that claims such. It is fundamentalist philosophical naturalism of likes of Dennet and Dawkins that forward this story as fact.

I will not like to discuss this point further in this thread since it is really painful to find very intelligent people harping on abiogenesis, as if it is a proven fact.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
Uh, yes you did as I have clearly shown.
Your posts and responses are laughable.
You post nonsense and then, when called out on your BS, you duck and dodge.
You call me and others creationists and theists which is laughable. It is clear from your clay arguments that you are the creationist. Do you try to hide it because you are ashamed?
Many of your posts are literally incoherent ramblings except when they are cut and pastes.
I'll ask again, can you explain why you, who allegedly has a college degree, would post an article that contradicted your own argument?

But he seems to be correct. Ontological naturalists believe in a story of creation of life-intelligence from 'dust' just as creationists believe.:)
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Subject is the conscious aspect that 'sees/knows'. Object is the insentient thing/aspect that is 'seen'. Chemicals are the insentient 'seen' objects.

Well, I see this as a simplistic and rather naive division. Chemicals interact with their environment. That interaction is a type of 'seeing'. A conscious 'subject' can still be made of matter and process necessary information in order to be conscious.

The point is that this is a false dichotomy. many things are both subject and object in the sense you just defined.


The seen objects do not say "I am". This is a hypothesis without any basis whatsoever. Without consciousness no object can ever be known. So, to reduce the consciousness that cognises, to a thing that is a seen object, is foolish, IMO. It is a category error. No chemical singly or jointly exhibit/s property of life or consciousness. Chemicals do not say "I am".

Well, I am a conscious thing and you can see me say 'I am'. I'd say that is enough to show your first statement is wrong.

Again, the point is that matter does, in fact, interact in major ways with other matter. Those ways preserve and transmit information. In sufficient complexity, that amounts to consciousness: the representation of the world internally along with a representation of self.

The claim, as above, that "I am" is the various chemical processes has no basis -- empirical or logical. It is a sorry story.

I fail to see why chemicals can't both be observed and observe. In fact, all detectors (seers) are made of chemicals.

But that is what I refute. An intelligence created of 'dust' by a mechanism cannot understand the mechanism.

Huh? Dust in mostly inert, unlike most organic chemicals. And why would it be impossible to understand a mechanism simply because the understanding is via that mechanism?

I have no problem with 'Origin of Species'. But there is no evidence of origin of life-consciousness from insentient chemicals. It is not science that claims such. It is fundamentalist philosophical naturalism of likes of Dennet and Dawkins that forward this story as fact.

I will not like to discuss this point further in this thread since it is really painful to find very intelligent people harping on abiogenesis, as if it is a proven fact.

Well, abiogenesis is not a proven fact in the sense that we do not know the details. But what you are asking about isn't abiogenesis, but the origins of consciousness. That is a different topic.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1. Science does not propose that RNA synthesis would 'go in clean cycles,'



2. Not in viruses.



3. This is the only completely true statement here. I play chess and fully realize chess players are unreliable source,



4. It is one of the objections to the RNA hypothesis, but not conclusive. If RNA forms in a priotein coat it is stable as in a primitive cell.

There are no claims at present the process is completely known. At present science is only falsifying the hypothesis for the different mechanism and processes. 'Arguing from ignorance,' does not negatethe science of abiogenesis, which is a work in progress.

I was commenting on the how much can be taken from the experiment and I think that your reply is based on the presupposition that this argument was on the entirety of RNA synthesis and not the experiment that claimed they had made the "spark of life" although my last two points can be applied, the first two are directly against the experiment that was brought up by [robocop (actually)] who I believe received it from you (correct me if i'm wrong).

1. As you (Shunyadragon) kindly pointed out, science doesn't propose that RNA synthesis would go in clean cycles (that would be ridiculous). In the experiment however they did use clean cycles and didn't get results until they used clean cycles, also restricting phosphate to the last stage of the very organised process.

2. You commented that RNA is not void of information in viruses and this is where I think that you are arguing to the entirety whereas my point was directed to a specific experiment. The RNA in the experiment was void of any information. It's also worth noting that the probabilities of synthesised RNA having any useful information would be incredibly low.

3. You agreed with my third statement, although I don't see why you want to insult me as these are valid arguments to the experiment that these points were addressed to.

4. I agree RNA is stable in a protein coat as seen in viruses, I am not sure on how it would form in the protein coat as the synthesis process that was described in the experiment wouldn't support it but regardless you said that the process isn't completely known so i'll let it slide. Also pointing to proteins doesn't help the case as I have already pointed out in a separate statement (not sure if [robocop (actually) forwarded it to you) that a protein forming correctly out of natural circumstances is approximately 1 in 10^164. Also it is worth noting that viruses can't reproduce on their own (If their are exceptions please tell me but I doubt any would be valid for your argument). Finally it isn't arguing from ignorance to bring up valid points against a hypothesis, not doing so would be bad science and it is also not a good idea to tell me that i'm arguing from ignorance right after you explain that secular science has no idea.

If you want to continue discussing this topic or another, please send it via the chess.com message system. We wouldn't want to overload [robocop (actually)].
happy.png
Note from robocop: It's fine with me to relay for now.

@Prokaryote
 

ecco

Veteran Member
But he seems to be correct. Ontological naturalists believe in a story of creation of life-intelligence from 'dust' just as creationists believe.:)
Can you give some examples of Ontological naturalists who believe in a story of creation of life-intelligence from 'dust' just as creationists believe.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Subject is the conscious aspect that 'sees/knows'.

Object is the insentient thing/aspect that is 'seen'. Chemicals are the insentient 'seen' objects.

I do not accept your definition subject, because it requires a theistic assumption. There is no evidence nor reason to require the subject 'sees/knows' anything.


The seen objects do not say "I am". This is a hypothesis without any basis whatsoever. Without consciousness no object can ever be known. So, to reduce the consciousness that cognises, to a thing that is a seen object, is foolish, IMO. It is a category error. No chemical singly or jointly exhibit/s property of life or consciousness. Chemicals do not say "I am".

You are anthropomorphic theistic assumptions, which is begging the question in your assertions.

The claim, as above, that "I am" is the various chemical processes has no basis -- empirical or logical. It is a sorry story.


But that is what I refute. An intelligence created of 'dust' by a mechanism cannot understand the mechanism.

This is Intelligent Design without a possibility of a falsifiable scientific hypothesis and remains simply an assertion of belief.

I have no problem with 'Origin of Species'. But there is no evidence of origin of life-consciousness from insentient chemicals. It is not science that claims such. It is fundamentalist philosophical naturalism of likes of Dennett and Dawkins that forward this story as fact.

I will not like to discuss this point further in this thread since it is really painful to find very intelligent people harping on abiogenesis, as if it is a proven fact.

It is painful to see intelligent? people rely on theistic assumptions for their argument without any supporting evidence.

If you can present a falsifiable scientific hypothesis to support your claims please do, but science has basically rejected this possibility, and the Courts (the Dover 2005 trial) has rejected it.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
1. As you (Shunyadragon) kindly pointed out, science doesn't propose that RNA synthesis would go in clean cycles (that would be ridiculous). In the experiment however they did use clean cycles and didn't get results until they used clean cycles, also restricting phosphate to the last stage of the very organised process.

This is not necessarily the last stage, and it does not restrict it to the last stage. In the early stages of abiogeneis the energy sources would the thermal sources of the earth such as the thermal vents. There has to be a point in the chemical evolution where the the early life forms based on RNA would have to independent of external sources. This is the reason RNA utilizing organic phosphate in energy transfer.

2. You commented that RNA is not void of information in viruses and this is where I think that you are arguing to the entirety whereas my point was directed to a specific experiment. The RNA in the experiment was void of any information. It's also worth noting that the probabilities of synthesised RNA having any useful information would be incredibly low.

The relying the probability ruse is an Intelligent Design problem and not science. I do not believe relying on statistics and probability theory works, because of too many unknowns, and cannot be applied to evolution and abiogensis based the limits of the variables are not none. Too many unknowns.

Actually the best bet at present is iron compound catalysts or other catalysts that allow for large production of RNA..

This discussion will continue with more research posted on abiogenesis.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Well, I see this as a simplistic and rather naive division. Chemicals interact with their environment. That interaction is a type of 'seeing'. A conscious 'subject' can still be made of matter and process necessary information in order to be conscious.

It is not naive. It is actually deep. It is the basis of Vedantic and Buddhist way to unravel the seer, which is not amenable to being objectified.

The point is that this is a false dichotomy. many things are both subject and object in the sense you just defined.

Show me one such thing and I will show that you are wrong.


Well, I am a conscious thing and you can see me say 'I am'. I'd say that is enough to show your first statement is wrong.

No. That is not the point at all. You subjectively knows "I am" but can you see/touch the "I am"? Your eyes see. But your eyes cannot be seen by eyes themselves.

Again, the point is that matter does, in fact, interact in major ways with other matter. Those ways preserve and transmit information. In sufficient complexity, that amounts to consciousness: the representation of the world internally along with a representation of self.

Sure. But all these are objects of senses and insentient. They have no subjective consciousness "I".


I fail to see why chemicals can't both be observed and observe. In fact, all detectors (seers) are made of chemicals.

Not correct. No detector sees. FID emits electrons that are captured and measured and the signals are recorded on paper roll. The fluctuations in signals are seen by us. We see and know.

Huh? Dust in mostly inert, unlike most organic chemicals. And why would it be impossible to understand a mechanism simply because the understanding is via that mechanism?

There is no empirical evidence that a created thing can unravel the truth of its creator/source and its creation process. Again in terms of simple metaphors: a car can never know how it came into being; a character in a novel will not know its author.

If our knowing is capable of truth, then it is uncreated.

Well, abiogenesis is not a proven fact .....

That is all. I am only saying this much.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is not necessarily the last stage, and it does not restrict it to the last stage. In the early stages of abiogeneis the energy sources would the thermal sources of the earth such as the thermal vents. There has to be a point in the chemical evolution where the the early life forms based on RNA would have to independent of external sources. This is the reason RNA utilizing organic phosphate in energy transfer.



The relying the probability ruse is an Intelligent Design problem and not science. I do not believe relying on statistics and probability theory works, because of too many unknowns, and cannot be applied to evolution and abiogensis based the limits of the variables are not none. Too many unknowns.

Actually the best bet at present is iron compound catalysts or other catalysts that allow for large production of RNA..

This discussion will continue with more research posted on abiogenesis.
I sent that to prokaryote. Thank you. I just wanted to comment that unlike Intelligent Design astrobiology is actual recognized science.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It is not naive. It is actually deep. It is the basis of Vedantic and Buddhist way to unravel the seer, which is not amenable to being objectified.

Well, that is the claim. I doubt that claim. In fact, I'll turn it around and claim that all 'seers' are also 'objects'. In fact, all 'seers' are things that detect and process information. That is what it means to 'see'. And everything that detects and processes information is amenable to independent viewing.

Show me one such thing and I will show that you are wrong.

My brain. It detects (sees) things through the senses and can also be objectively seen.

No. That is not the point at all. You subjectively knows "I am" but can you see/touch the "I am"? Your eyes see. But your eyes cannot be seen by eyes themselves.

Sure they can. You just need a mirror to do it. But when you look in the mirror at your eyes, they are simultaneously seers and seen.

Sure. But all these are objects of senses and insentient. They have no subjective consciousness "I".

Those living organisms that are complex enough do. The relevant factor is complexity of information processing.


Not correct. No detector sees. FID emits electrons that are captured and measured and the signals are recorded on paper roll. The fluctuations in signals are seen by us. We see and know.

What does it mean to 'see'? It means to detect. What does it mean to 'know'? it means to utilize information appropriately. So something that detects and utilizes information appropriately is both a seer and a knower.


There is no empirical evidence that a created thing can unravel the truth of its creator/source and its creation process. Again in terms of simple metaphors: a car can never know how it came into being; a character in a novel will not know its author.

That's because a car is rather simple and not given the ability to know such things. and created characters are fictional and have no real properties.

If our knowing is capable of truth, then it is uncreated.

That simply doesn't follow. If something is capable of knowing truth, then it is complex, but that doesn't require being uncreated.

That is all. I am only saying this much.

OK. It looked like you were talking about consciousness, not the origin of life.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
The environment of abiogenesis. There two alternative environments where abiogenesis likely took place: (1) Alkaline thermal vents in the mid ocean ridges. (2) Thermal terrestrial chemical vents and clay volcanic thermal vents. This is a very good reference that describes the science behind both, and the controversy. Both possible environments provide the necessary energy sources for abiogenesis to take place.

From: Hydrothermal vents and the origins of life

"The question ‘How did life begin?’ is closely linked to the question ‘Where did life begin?’ Most experts agree over ‘when’: 3.8–4 billion years ago. But there is still no consensus as to the environment that could have fostered this event. Since their discovery, deep sea hydrothermal vents have been suggested as the birthplace of life, particularly alkaline vents, like those found at ‘the Lost City’ field in the mid-Atlantic. But not everyone is convinced that life started in the sea – many say the chemistry just won’t work and are looking for a land-based birthplace. With several hypotheses in play, the race is on to replicate the conditions that allowed life to emerge.

. . .
In 1993, before alkaline vents were actually discovered, geochemist Michael Russell from Nasa’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in California, US, suggested a mechanism by which life could have started at such vents.1 His ideas, updated in 2003,2 suggest life came from harnessing the energy gradients that exist when alkaline vent water mixes with more acidic seawater (the early oceans were thought to contain more carbon dioxide than now).

This mirrors the way that cells harness energy. Cells maintain a proton gradient by pumping protons across a membrane to create a charge differential from inside to outside. Known as the proton-motive force, this can be equated to a difference of about 3 pH units. It’s effectively a mechanism to store potential energy and this can then be harnessed when protons are allowed to pass through the membrane to phosphorylate adenosine diphosphate (ADP), making ATP.

Russell’s theory suggests that pores in the hydrothermal vent chimneys provided templates for cells, with the same 3 pH unit difference across the thin mineral walls of the interconnected vent micropores that separate the vent and sea water. This energy, along with catalytic iron nickel sulfide minerals, allowed the reduction of carbon dioxide and production of organic molecules, then self-replicating molecules, and eventually true cells with their own membranes.

Chemical gardens
Chemist Laura Barge, also a research scientist at JPL, is testing this theory using chemical gardens – an experiment you might have carried out at school. Looking at chemical gardens ‘you think its life, but it’s definitely not’, says Barge, who specialises in self-organising chemical systems. The classical chemical garden is formed by adding metal salts to a reactive sodium silicate solution. The metal and silicate anions precipitate to form a gelatinous colloidal semi-permeable membrane enclosing the metal salt. This sets up a concentration gradient which provides the impetus for the growth of hollow plant-like columns.

Chemical gardens in the lab mimic the conditions of hydrothermal vents and are a useful model for studying how life could have started

‘We started simulating what you might get with a vent fluid and the ocean and we can grow tiny chimneys – they are essentially like chemical gardens,’ explains Barge. To mimic the early ocean she has injected alkaline solutions into iron-rich acidic solutions, making iron hydroxide and iron sulfide chimneys. From these experiments her team have illustrated that they can generate electricity: just under a volt from four gardens, but enough to power an LED,3 showing that the sort of proton gradients that provide energy in deep sea vents can be replicated.

Nick Lane, a biochemist at University College London in the UK, has also been trying to recreate prebiotic geo-electrochemical systems with his origins of life reactor. He favours Russell’s theory, although is not happy with the ‘metabolism first’ label it is often given, in opposition to the ‘information first’ theory which supposes that synthesising replicating RNA molecules was the first step to life. ‘They are portrayed as being opposing but I think that’s silly,’ says Lane. ‘As I see it, we are trying to work out how you get to a world where you have selection and can give rise to something like nucleotides.’

Lane has been persuaded by how closely the geochemistry and biochemistry align. For example, minerals such as greigite (Fe3S4) are found inside vents and they show some relationships to the iron–sulfur clusters found in microbial enzymes. They could have acted as primitive enzymes for the reduction of carbon dioxide with hydrogen and the formation of organic molecules. ‘There are differences as well, the barriers [between micropores in vent chimneys] are thicker [than cell membranes] and so on, but the analogy is very precise and so the question becomes “Is it feasible for these natural proton gradients to break down the barrier to the reaction between hydrogen and carbon dioxide?”’

Lane’s simple bench-top, open-flow origins of life reactor4 is simulating hydrothermal vent conditions. On one side of a semiconducting iron–nickel–sulfur catalytic barrier, an alkaline fluid is pumped through to simulate vent fluids and on the other side, an acidic solution that simulates sea water. As well as flow rates, the temperatures can be varied on both sides. Across the membrane, ‘The first step is trying to get carbon dioxide to react with hydrogen to make organics, and we seem to be successful in producing formaldehyde in that way,’ says Lane.

So far yields have been very low but Lane considers they have ‘proof of principle’. They are working on replicating their results and proving that the formaldehyde seen is not coming from another source such as degradation of tubing. From the same conditions, Lane says they have also been able to synthesise low yields of sugars, including 0.06% ribose, from formaldehyde, although not at the formaldehyde concentration produced by the reactor alone.

Digging deeper
Investigating hydrothermal vents, geochemist Frieder Klein from Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in the US has discovered a variation on the deep sea origin story. He has found evidence of life in rock below the sea floor which might have provided the right environment for life to start.

Next is the description of possible terrestrial origins:

Landlocked
But not everyone agrees that life began in deep sea hydrothermal systems. Armen Mulkidjanian at the University of Osnabruck in Germany says there are several big problems with the idea, one being the relative sodium and potassium ion concentrations found in seawater compared to cells.

Mulkidjanian invokes what he calls the chemistry conservation principle – once established in any environment, organisms will retain and evolve mechanisms to protect their fundamental biochemical architecture. He says therefore it makes no sense for cells that contain 10 times more potassium than sodium to have their origins in seawater, which has 40 times more sodium than potassium. His assumption is that protocells must have evolved in an environment with more potassium than sodium, only developing ion pumps to remove unwanted sodium when their environment changed.

Mulkidjanian thinks life could have sprung from geothermal systems, such as the Siberian Kamchatka geothermal fields in the Russian Far East. ‘We started to look for where we could find conditions with more potassium than sodium and the only things that we found were geothermal systems, particularly where you have vapour coming out of the earth,’ he explains. It is only pools created from vapour vents that have more potassium than sodium; those formed from geothermal liquid vents still have more sodium than potassium. A handful of such system exist today, in Italy, the US and Japan, but Mulkidjanian suggests that on the hotter early earth you would expect many more.

David Deamer of the University of California Santa Cruz in the US has been studying macromolecules and lipid membranes for over 50 years. He comes to the field from a slightly different angle, which some have called ‘membrane first’. But, he says, ‘I’m pretty sure that the best way to understand the origin of life is to realise that it is a system of molecules all of which work together, just as they do in today’s life.’ The location ‘comes down to a plausibility judgement on my part’, he muses.

One of the biggest arguments against a deep sea origin is the fact that so many macromolecules are found in biology. DNA, RNA, proteins and lipids are all polymers and form via condensation reactions. ’You need a fluctuating environment which is sometimes wet and sometimes dry – a wet period so that the components mix and interact and then a dry period so that water is removed and these components can form a polymer,’ says Mulkidjanian. ‘There is no way for this kind of a thing to happen in [a deep sea] hydrothermal vent because you cannot have wet–dry cycles there,’ adds Deamer. Wet and dry cycling occurs every day on continental hydrothermal fields. This allows for concentration of reactants as well as polymerisation."

A read of the full article is worth while for those interested in this subject.

I really appreciate your taking the time to put all of this information into a post. This is incedibly informative.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Well, that is the claim. I doubt that claim. In fact, I'll turn it around and claim that all 'seers' are also 'objects'. In fact, all 'seers' are things that detect and process information. That is what it means to 'see'. And everything that detects and processes information is amenable to independent viewing.

You cannot doubt that you are the seer of a sensual world, your body-senses and thoughts that make up your mind. You cannot however see yourself. There is nothing doubtful in this.

My brain. It detects (sees) things through the senses and can also be objectively seen.

This is a theory. How can the massive interactions between nerve cells (neurons), determine our thoughts and behaviors is not known at all.

Sure they can. You just need a mirror to do it. But when you look in the mirror at your eyes, they are simultaneously seers and seen.

Thank you for helping to make my point clear. The image on the mirror is not the subject. Image of the eyes are not the eyes. The subject can only be seen/known when reflected.

Those living organisms that are complex enough do. The relevant factor is complexity of information processing.

Tononi and Koch have proposed complex information processing as a quantifiable model for understanding consciousness yet they say that how the massive interactions between nerve cells determine our thoughts and behaviors is not known. So, to claim that as fact is wrong.

What does it mean to 'see'? It means to detect. What does it mean to 'know'? it means to utilize information appropriately. So something that detects and utilizes information appropriately is both a seer and a knower.

A detector surely sees/knows nothing. Detectors go through state changes. Human interpreter sees and understands those state changes. We go through state changes and we know of those changes.

That's because a car is rather simple and not given the ability to know such things. and created characters are fictional and have no real properties.

That is not pertinent. Why do you think that a complex creation will give rise to a created thing that will be able to know the 'creator' and the creation process?

That simply doesn't follow. If something is capable of knowing truth, then it is complex, but that doesn't require being uncreated.

Ask yourself sincerely, how a created thing can know about its creation process.

OK. It looked like you were talking about consciousness, not the origin of life.

It is incidental, since I do not separate life and consciousness. My only intention was to point out that abiogenesis is not a proven fact.

Since, I am de-railing the subject of the thread, I will like to withdraw from this thread.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It is incidental, since I do not separate life and consciousness. My only intention was to point out that abiogenesis is not a proven fact.

Since, I am de-railing the subject of the thread, I will like to withdraw from this thread.

This response is similar to the Fundamentalist Christian view of evolution. Neither evolution nor abiogensis are 'proven facts,' This is an unfortunate corrupted layman's view from a religious agenda. They are sciences developed from falsified hypothesis with valid predictions. Of course, abiogenesis is a far younger science, and many more questions remain to be answered.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You cannot doubt that you are the seer of a sensual world, your body-senses and thoughts that make up your mind. You cannot however see yourself. There is nothing doubtful in this.

I see myself all the time.

This is a theory. How can the massive interactions between nerve cells (neurons), determine our thoughts and behaviors is not known at all.

Well, look at the properties of thoughts: they involve information, emotions, etc. They are directly affected by what we do to the brain. I could go into a lot more detail, but that 'theory' is predictive, testable, and has passed every test thrown at it.


Thank you for helping to make my point clear. The image on the mirror is not the subject. Image of the eyes are not the eyes. The subject can only be seen/known when reflected.

In that strict sense, then, we never see anything other than images. I don't see the chair in my room, but only the light reflected from it. Detection and seeing in a mirror is a perfectly good example of seeing.

Tononi and Koch have proposed complex information processing as a quantifiable model for understanding consciousness yet they say that how the massive interactions between nerve cells determine our thoughts and behaviors is not known. So, to claim that as fact is wrong.

Well, it is a fact in the same sense as any other scientific fact: it makes testable predictions that have been verified, etc.

A detector surely sees/knows nothing. Detectors go through state changes. Human interpreter sees and understands those state changes. We go through state changes and we know of those changes.

The way we know of state changes is via changes in our own state. Again, there is nothing there that can't be done by matter. And, in fact, by the neurons in our brains.

That is not pertinent. Why do you think that a complex creation will give rise to a created thing that will be able to know the 'creator' and the creation process

I really don't see the issue here. To know the 'creative process' just means we have an internal representation of the steps involved. I see no reason at all that would make that impossible.


Ask yourself sincerely, how a created thing can know about its creation process?

Exactly the same way it would know any other piece of information. Internal storage of data and enough processing to fit it into the mesh of other information. This really seems like a triviality once we have the possibility of any sort of knowledge.

It is incidental, since I do not separate life and consciousness. My only intention was to point out that abiogenesis is not a proven fact.

Since, I am de-railing the subject of the thread, I will like to withdraw from this thread.

Only in the sense that we don't have all the details. We know that life is a chemical process. We know the chemicals involved and a lot about how they interact. We are learning how the required polymerizations and information processing abilities are produced. We have good ideas of where such events happened (deep sea vents are one place--ponds with cycles of wetting and dryng are another).

The whole issue of consciousness is a side issue for abiogenesis. Consciousness happened *much* later on and is a separate thing that evolved.
 
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