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Featured Scientific advances in abiogenesis

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by shunyadragon, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Abiogenesis is appearing in a number of threads off topic There were many negative views of abiogensis. This is the inspiration for this thread.

    This version actually proposes the 'warm pond' hypothesis,' but it could have taken place in several different environments.

    First reference:

    LIFE'S FIRST SPARK RE-CREATED IN THE LABORATORY


    [​IMG]

    A fundamental but elusive step in the early evolution of life on Earth has been replicated in a laboratory.

    Researchers synthesized the basic ingredients of RNA, a molecule from which the simplest self-replicating structures are made. Until now, they couldn't explain how these ingredients might have formed.

    "It's like molecular choreography, where the molecules choreograph their own behavior," said organic chemist John Sutherland of the University of Manchester, co-author of a study in Nature Wednesday.

    RNA is now found in living cells, where it carries information between genes and protein-manufacturing cellular components. Scientists think RNA existed early in Earth's history, providing a necessary intermediate platform between pre-biotic chemicals and DNA, its double-stranded, more-stable descendant.

    However, though researchers have been able to show how RNA's component molecules, called ribonucleotides, could assemble into RNA, their many attempts to synthesize these ribonucleotides have failed. No matter how they combined the ingredients — a sugar, a phosphate, and one of four different nitrogenous molecules, or nucleobases — ribonucleotides just wouldn't form.

    Sutherland's team took a different approach in what Harvard molecular biologist Jack Szostak called a "synthetic tour de force" in an accompanying commentary in Nature.

    "By changing the way we mix the ingredients together, we managed to make ribonucleotides," said Sutherland. "The chemistry works very effectively from simple precursors, and the conditions required are not distinct from what one might imagine took place on the early Earth."

    Like other would-be nucleotide synthesizers, Sutherland's team included phosphate in their mix, but rather than adding it to sugars and nucleobases, they started with an array of even simpler molecules that were probably also in Earth's primordial ooze.

    They mixed the molecules in water, heated the solution, then allowed it to evaporate, leaving behind a residue of hybrid, half-sugar, half-nucleobase molecules. To this residue they again added water, heated it, allowed it evaporate, and then irradiated it.

    At each stage of the cycle, the resulting molecules were more complex. At the final stage, Sutherland's team added phosphate. "Remarkably, it transformed into the ribonucleotide!" said Sutherland.

    According to Sutherland, these laboratory conditions resembled those of the life-originating "warm little pond" hypothesized by Charles Darwin if the pond "evaporated, got heated, and then it rained and the sun shone."

    Such conditions are plausible, and Szostak imagined the ongoing cycle of evaporation, heating and condensation providing "a kind of organic snow which could accumulate as a reservoir of material ready for the next step in RNA synthesis."

    Intriguingly, the precursor molecules used by Sutherland's team have been identified in interstellar dust clouds and on meteorites.

    "Ribonucleotides are simply an expression of the fundamental principles of organic chemistry," said Sutherland. "They're doing it unwittingly. The instructions for them to do it are inherent in the structure of the precursor materials. And if they can self-assemble so easily, perhaps they shouldn't be viewed as complicated."
     
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  2. 1137

    1137 Beloved of Set | O.S. Co-founder
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    I myself have always been more interested on the rise of consciousness. I feel like it's been a while since someone first made life comparable to how it may have started. But for consciousness - no answers.
     
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  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    This thread deals with abiogenesis. I will gladly deal with the mind and consciousness in the future.

    Life develops from non-life chemicals first, and then consciousness.
     
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  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity simple man
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    It was interesting. I recall being told as a child that attempts to create RNA in the lab had failed. So they have found out how it might have occurred naturally.

    I have a question which is why do they think the RNA would develop before the DNA?
     
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  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    It is simpler only a single chain instead of a double. Much easier to form naturally, plus it can carry genetic information too.
     
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  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Very nice, but I can't seem to find the link. Thank you for starting this thread.
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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  8. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting.

    Slightly off on a tangent, but are there not microbes that use RNA as genetic material, and contain no DNA?

    I seem to remember reading about this somewhere or other.

    But that would lend credence to the abiogeneisis hypothesis.

    Edit: Found this Does a DNA-less cellular organism exist on Earth?
     
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  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    I believe you are correct, I may cite it later, but it remains the key as to how RNA forms.
     
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  10. Craig Sedok

    Craig Sedok Member

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  11. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    erik stodik already wrote a wonderful paper on this long ago..
    fc48c2dcf11b1d14640681c0127239c3.jpeg
     
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  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    In the biochemistry of Genetics it is acknowledged that the simpler RNA (single chain) must form first, and then the more complex DNA (double chain).

    I will deal with this more later.
     
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  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    It looks like a masochist into whips chains and leather sex. hard to evolve that way.
     
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  14. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Ah...indeed.... For me abiogenisis is self evident no science needed actually since i dont interpret inorganic\innanimate organic/annimate. Thats a wieeerdo dualistic interpretation to me that makes zero sense..

    But i was alluding to is we can observe scientifically and then create narratives that are biased and we dont realize it.

    On a side note my interpretation is , It appears sex is more basic and older we realized. I love self replicating or the practice of self replicating with someone else of female persuasion and vere little intelligence is involved.. So apparently that goes way way back in time and we have discovered evidence of that!!! !! Horny little proteins.. How old is that? Woodie allen played a protein in the 60s. Or close to a protein from what i have been told..

    woodyallensex_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bqeo_i_u9APj8RuoebjoAHt0k9u7HhRJvuo-ZLenGRumA.jpg
     
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  15. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity simple man
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    That part I understand, but the OP says DNA is more stable. Might not the DNA be more likely to have gained repeatability first?
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    From my understanding it is much more difficult to synthesize DNA without a forerunner. That appears to be possible for RNA. Once RNA was up and running it could make DNA, once the mutations that made it possible occurred. RNA also has dual functions. It both stores info and can be used as an enzyme as a catalyst in chemical reactions. DNA tends to store info only.

    RNA's shortcoming is that it is more apt to mutate, which can be both a good and bad thing. One thing to remember is that very early life had practically no competition. This is far far outside of my area of expertise, but as usual Wiki can be a good starting point:

    RNA world - Wikipedia
     
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  17. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Self Replicating RNA emerges in the lab through directed evolution.
    https://www.cell.com/cell-chemical-biology/fulltext/S1074-5521(13)00426-2

    An RNA enzyme has been developed that catalyzes the joining of oligonucleotide substrates to form additional copies of itself, undergoing self-replication with exponential growth. The enzyme also can cross-replicate with a partner enzyme, resulting in their mutual exponential growth and enabling self-sustained Darwinian evolution. The opportunity for inventive evolution within this synthetic genetic system depends on the diversity of the evolving population, which is limited by the catalytic efficiency of the enzyme. Directed evolution was used to improve the efficiency of the enzyme and increase its exponential growth rate to 0.14 min−1, corresponding to a doubling time of 5 min. This is close to the limit of 0.21 min−1imposed by the rate of product release, but sufficient to enable more than 80 logs of growth per day.

    To enable the propagation of genetic information, the self-replicating RNA ligase has been converted to a cross-replication format whereby two RNA enzymes catalyze each other’s synthesis from a total of four component substrates ( Kim and Joyce, 2004). Information is transmitted between the parent and progeny enzymes through two regions of Watson-Crick pairing, each of which may contain many possible sequences. Recombination can occur between these two regions, resulting in novel variants that compete for utilization of the oligonucleotide substrates. Those variants that have faster exponential growth rates enjoy a selective advantage, resulting in the self-sustained Darwinian evolution of the fittest replicators ( Lincoln and Joyce, 2009).
     
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  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I’m sorry, but the scientists in the laboratory have intelligence ;

    This only proves that it takes intelligence to even begin the steps!

    Let’s see how far they get. Even if they create life, it still wouldn’t support abiogenesis: originating from natural causes, ie., by itself.
     
    #18 Hockeycowboy, Oct 10, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
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  19. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Furthermore, the fact that DNA-based replication still relies on RNA as an intermediary is highly suggestive that an earlier RNA-only process was later upgraded by adding the DNA process on top.
     
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  20. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Existence and consciousness are not separable. Life without consciousness will not be known and consciousness without life willnot exist.

    The axiomatic premise in OP and in general in philosophical naturalism is that consciousness is a product of matter. So, RNA is somehow shown as proof of origin of life and then to consciousness. Even if there is no evidence that matter generates consciousness and subjective experience.

    It is taken almost as an axiom. Although, implications of a created consciousness is that we have no power to unravel truth of any proposition, since mechanism has sealed the fate.
     
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