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Featured Science - Who Needs It

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by nPeace, May 17, 2019.

  1. charlie sc

    charlie sc Active Member

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    George Washington needed science.

     
  2. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    My 'hypothesis' is: 'this will taste nice if I do this/add X' (i.e. I am aiming to produce a chemical substance with a specific quality)

    I still don't get the need for something to be innovative to make it 'science' though. The latter people are simply replicating the 'experiment', and replication is still science.

    Also, let's say completely independently of each other, 2 ancient metallurgists created the same alloy (let's say bronze). One created bronze 10 years earlier than the other though, even though they live on opposite sides of the world.

    You are saying that the first one was created using science, but the second one was not as it was 'nothing new'? So science is not defined by purely by following a "scientific" methodology, but also by who was first?

    (And why was the first monkey who formed an implicit hypothesis 'I can fish for termites with a stick' which he then tested not doing science?)

    Almost all trial and error has a goal, that is why you are doing the trial and error in the first place. It might be fixing your computer, creating a recipe, or inventing the electric lightbulb. We all do this. It is a very instinctive activity.

    A child with a toy where you need to put different shaped objects in different shaped holes starts with trial and error. They form a basic hypothesis 'this object will fit in that hole' then they test it. The monkey had a goal to create a new technology to help him eat the termites. His hypothesis was that the stick would do the job.

    As I've said, the demarcation problem is not an easy one to resolve and there is no single correct answer to it. Your approach seems to be very inconsistent though as things using exactly the same methodology are identified as either "science" or "not science" based on no clearly identified characteristics.

    If science is simply 'trial and error to produce an anticipated goal', it also means that "science" is responsible for almost everything, good or bad, humans have ever done.
     
    #82 Augustus, May 19, 2019
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  3. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    I agree that if one is science then the other also has to be.

    How would you differentiate between science and "not science" btw?
     
  4. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    So what!?!?! Nothing new, and not an adequate hypothesis to develop something new as new mtals with new abolities as in science.

    Replication to confirm hypothesis is a part of science, and thi is not the issue here. The development of new metals is scientific goals and hypothesis, and of course they repeated their work to confirm it. Your silly food example does not meet the grade.

    This actually happened, but more time then ten years, and it remains science. It has actually happened in the contemporary world of science. It does not change anything both are science.

    No hypothesis here for creating something new.
     
  5. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    The scientific method was not invented it is inherent in the intellect of the nature of being human, evolved over time, and elements of the scientific method are in almost all human activities to make and do things. Your correct that the application of different methods occur all through human problem solving activities. You gave examples, but unfortunately your examples do not make the grade of the full scientific method coming up with something new with the scientific methods as the development of different metal allows in the Bronze Age, Iron Age and beyond, and going back to the Neolithic in the development of the Jade Age in China.

    The development of metal allows involved the knowledge of existing metal elements, the goal of developing more durable and harder alloys, the hypothesis is that mixing metals in proper ratios will produce harder and more durable metals. Actually the experimenting with different ratios of metals to meet different needs is a part of this science. The bronze applied technology was the development of tools and weapons with the new metals.that is the best for bells is not the same as the bronze used in swords. This basically the same process of scientific methods used in developing steel allows in the iron age and after, and contemporary science developing Titanium alloys, and the technologies to apply the new alloys to industry.
     
    #85 shunyadragon, May 19, 2019
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  6. bobhikes

    bobhikes infinitologist
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    After thinking about how to answer this is my best response. It depends on the individual for which is best. The one thing we need to survive well is others to support us how we get the others to support us is based on our individual needs. You can live with the Amish or You can live in NYC what do you want will decide mostly on which is better.

    As for me I believe a combination of each without reliance on either is the best way. I attend mass every week, I support my church in different ways and put my kids in religious instruction. I am a Electronics Technician with direct ties to science and invest a lot of my time in science. I do not consider my church the absolute authority nor do I consider science the absolute authority. I tend to challenge both. I find myself happiest in a natural environment where I can just relax in the moment not caring about Religion or Science.
     
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  7. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    I need my glasses to see clearly. In the good ol' days I would not have known which way to run when needed.
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Millions of mentally ill people. Gee... I wonder why.


    Shows, 'having knowledge of how things work, and using that knowledge with certain advancements, is not bad at all'.


    Why did things evolve to form a universe and a planet equipped to sustain life?
    Gravity.
    Somebody, put me out of my misery.


    Yes you did.


    ...we can live without knowing that the earth orbits the sun, rotates around an axis at an angle of 23.5 degrees, at a speed of about 1,000 miles per hour.
    The farmers who did not know this, died because they didn't know when to plant.
    Please, someone, just end the misery... please, it's torture.


    Obvious you understood nothing the post said. That's understandable.
     
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Ask the ancient civilizations. Go to the Amazon, and ask the Indians there. Try the Aboriginal Australians. Just search for the indigenous people.
    Oh wait. Forget I said that. I don't want any blood on my hands. Some people with a high-and-mighty-full-of-themselves attitude.often irritate humble people trying to live without interference. Then there are those who have a keen smell for unwelcoming "guest"
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    What do those truth claims have to do with my living?
    How many does one need?
    For example, people have been having sexual intercourse for centuries, and making babies. Do you think knowing about Mendel's Laws of Heredity, affect how they will now have sexual intercourse.
    It seems my OP has been misunderstood... but that's okay.
    I understand why.

    There are people, of course, who need education, since unlike others, they may not have been educated, or they may have been misled by opinions. Even scientists need educating themselves.
    For example, they thought Joseph Lister was a stupid fool, before they learned they were wrong.

    I hear what you are saying, and I don't think I disagree.
    I think you should read the post more carefully to understand what I am saying.
    I'm not sure it would make a difference, as I understand how our minds can sometimes run away with a few words our eyes see, and filter out everything else, but of course this has a lot to do with our mindset.
    It is said, 'there is an art in listening'. Art is not an easy thing for everyone. It take a lot of practice. A whole lot, for some others.
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I did no such thing. Please read the post more carefully.
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    For the dollar. Okay
    Actually knowledge, understanding, and wisdom are very good things. The question is, what?
     
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    For thousands of years, traditional herbal remedies have been used to treat malaria. The first effective treatment for malaria came from the bark of cinchona tree, which contains quinine.

    Although there is little record to establish when plants were first used for medicinal purposes (herbalism), the use of plants as healing agents, as well as clays and soils is ancient. Over time, through emulation of the behavior of fauna, a medicinal knowledge base developed and passed between generations.

    The uses of bark in medicine are endless. It can be used to treat a wide range of ailments, from inflammation, arthritis, and high blood pressure, to even being used in some cancer treatments.

    Why do people today think they are the pioneers of commonsense and knowledge, and everyone else was backwards?
    Funny, the reverse seems to be true from the looks of things.
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks.
    I find it hard to imagine relaxing without thinking about religion, because our mind is always busy with things that impact our lives, and the lives of friends and family... and the questions are always there... unless we have had them answered.
    Since you are religious, I believe you are able to relax, because some of your questions have been answered, and subconsciously your religious thoughts sooth you.
    That's what I think, but I could be wrong. We are all different, although not so much in some cases.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    1940s? Dude, you are talking about the backward era. Go back... Go back.
    Science - Who Needs It
     
  16. charlie sc

    charlie sc Active Member

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    Your OP is mostly rant and drivel, though I did answer it correctly. You asked who needed science and I'm sure many many people do and did. In the OP, you compared the past to the present and so will I.
    I gave an example of how an important figure needed science.

    The end. :)
     
    #96 charlie sc, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  17. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Si you have no answer other than god messed up but you are unwilling to say that so fall back on mockery?


    One has to learn how to create that technology in order to benefit from it. I see no instructions in the god books of how to build a computer so you can mock technology.

    How about learning come basic cosmology or particle physics rather than mocking what you self admittedly dont understand?

    Proof please!

    The farmers learned by obsetvatobse, that in itself is an aspect of science. How about learning some history too rather than making yourself look deliberately foolish

    You made a statement based the ignorance of benefits of medical science. I replied with a valid example so once again you choose mockery as your get out clause. If you really think i did not understand your claim then how about explaining why it is better to provide the conditions for, say, smallpox to return rather than saving 5 million lives per year.

    Conclusion. Because you cannot provide answers that work in favour of your faith you resort to mockery.
     
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  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    In your first post: "Thus the world is divided into Scientists, who practice the art of infallibility, and non-scientists, sometimes contemptuously called "laymen," who are taken in by it."

    Also you are constantly referring to 'those scientists?' in negative generalizations, and egos without clarification. You totally misrepresent science by referring to the negative 'personalities' of individuals, which is not science. Science has self-correcting methods of peer review and redundant research, reevaluation, and commentary on previous works. Research that is not repeatable and is flawed is weeded out over time.

    I am still waiting for your definition of 'good science,' since you have at present only resorted to vague character assassinations of unnamed scientists. I gave mine, and I am waiting . . .
     
  19. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Marginally true, and also the blacks of Africa evolved with cycle cell anemia as a defense against malaria.
    It remains a fact that millions still died, before modern scientists developed better treatments.

    By the way science does research natural herbal medicines to contribute to the technology, but that does not negate the advances in the science of medicine that improve the health and life span of humans.

    Good Science? Still waiting . . .
     
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  20. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    And those herbal remedies for malaria rarely worked. We are fully aware of the herbal remedies and their relative ineffectiveness in treating most cases of malaria.
     
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