• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Science vs Religion, I will solve this debate for you once and for all.

So, for starters, people like me because I speak ultimate truths that aren't sugar coated. I'll give you an example, you crawled out of a ***** and you don't have any clue where you are. Nobody does. It's the greatest mystery that nobody likes to talk about. We like to pretend that we know everything, and we like to give things names because if we name something we can claim that we know what it is, but the reality is that we don't know anything. The reality is that we are very good at pretending things just like we did when we were kids. In fact I plan to make a point that there is two realities. The natural world aka the real world, and the pretend society that we create to hide from the gruesome natural world we all fear.

Before I get off topic, Science vs Religion. Who wins? That's easy...

Answer= Nobody, we all lose, because they are the same thing.

Crowd gasps, "What did he just say?"

Yes you heard me, they are the same. Religion by definition is a belief held with faith. The same way science makes claims, uh, I mean theories, many that can't be proven, but must be believed with faith. To put it more plainly science is merely the new age religion. In the past it was scientific fact that the earth was flat and if you said otherwise you could be executed. Well in a few hundred years from now all the scientific things we believe today will be disproven. Not to say that some clever inventions haven't arisen from science like this laptop I'm typing on, but science can't be used to explain existence similar to how a holographic man could never understand what's outside the hologram.

I could get into deep heated argumentation over this no doubt, but I believe I can easily destroy anybody's scientific arguments with the following sentence.

Life itself is a paradox. Therefore all attempts at explaining life using science aka observing the universe is futile. Don't believe that life is a paradox? Here I'll show you it's easy:

There is only two possible options for life:

1. Life, and all matter, and energy, sprang into existence from nothing.
(We know that is impossible because something can not come from nothing everything must have a beginning.)

2. Life has always existed and has had no beginning.
(We know that is impossible because everything must have a beginning.)

Both of those options defy all logic yet there is no other alternatives.

There you have it indisputable proof that life itself is the greatest mystery and an unsolvable paradox. Something that all kids know. I don't think I'm smart for telling you this, in fact, I'm aware that you already knew this, but doesn't it feel refreshing to hear somebody say it?

The truth is that were scared of the natural world. Its terrifying. Imagine being in the woods alone at night with something stalking you trying to eat you. Sounds like a nightmare right? No, its real. It could happen. We live in a predatory parasitic world where to survive living sentient beings must be slaughtered and their flesh consumed for energy transference its quite sick and disturbing if you actually stop to think about it. Its no wonder we would literally do anything to distract our self from this thus we have created modern society which is mostly a huge distraction, and its no wonder the ancients used to worship the sun, their risen savior who brought light to the world and let them see the predators trying to eat them.

Religion your not getting off the hook so easy either. For starters all the religions contain ancient texts that predate the books they are presented in today. All these ancient texts were written by ancient man, but they are not divine, and they have been manipulated by your rulers with some things left out and some things added. The ancients were people doing what people do best, pretending and making things up to distract themselves from reality just the same as we are still doing today. In fact its better to argue about which is better, science or religion, then to think about the fact that your going to die and your entire existence may have been pointless.

The ultimate truth here is that nobody knows a damn thing about where we are, why were here, or how the universe and life started. It's all conjecture and opinion so lets stop pretending, arguing, and fighting over whos made up b.s. is better. My god is better than your god because my god has a giant cock!

Maybe the ancients were smarter then we give them credit for because they told us that to find real truths you must look deep within yourself, because that's where the true universe exists. You are infinite consciousness. You are a paradox, and you have the power!

Just a simple reminder from your friend, Focused Intent.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So, for starters, people like me because I speak ultimate truths that aren't sugar coated. I'll give you an example, you crawled out of a ***** and you don't have any clue where you are. Nobody does. It's the greatest mystery that nobody likes to talk about. We like to pretend that we know everything, and we like to give things names because if we name something we can claim that we know what it is, but the reality is that we don't know anything. The reality is that we are very good at pretending things just like we did when we were kids. In fact I plan to make a point that there is two realities. The natural world aka the real world, and the pretend society that we create to hide from the gruesome natural world we all fear.

Before I get off topic, Science vs Religion. Who wins? That's easy...

Answer= Nobody, we all lose, because they are the same thing.

Crowd gasps, "What did he just say?"

Yes you heard me, they are the same. Religion by definition is a belief held with faith. The same way science makes claims, uh, I mean theories, many that can't be proven, but must be believed with faith. To put it more plainly science is merely the new age religion. In the past it was scientific fact that the earth was flat and if you said otherwise you could be executed. Well in a few hundred years from now all the scientific things we believe today will be disproven. Not to say that some clever inventions haven't arisen from science like this laptop I'm typing on, but science can't be used to explain existence similar to how a holographic man could never understand what's outside the hologram.

I could get into deep heated argumentation over this no doubt, but I believe I can easily destroy anybody's scientific arguments with the following sentence.

Life itself is a paradox. Therefore all attempts at explaining life using science aka observing the universe is futile. Don't believe that life is a paradox? Here I'll show you it's easy:

There is only two possible options for life:

1. Life, and all matter, and energy, sprang into existence from nothing.
(We know that is impossible because something can not come from nothing everything must have a beginning.)

2. Life has always existed and has had no beginning.
(We know that is impossible because everything must have a beginning.)

Both of those options defy all logic yet there is no other alternatives.

There you have it indisputable proof that life itself is the greatest mystery and an unsolvable paradox. Something that all kids know. I don't think I'm smart for telling you this, in fact, I'm aware that you already knew this, but doesn't it feel refreshing to hear somebody say it?

The truth is that were scared of the natural world. Its terrifying. Imagine being in the woods alone at night with something stalking you trying to eat you. Sounds like a nightmare right? No, its real. It could happen. We live in a predatory parasitic world where to survive living sentient beings must be slaughtered and their flesh consumed for energy transference its quite sick and disturbing if you actually stop to think about it. Its no wonder we would literally do anything to distract our self from this thus we have created modern society which is mostly a huge distraction, and its no wonder the ancients used to worship the sun, their risen savior who brought light to the world and let them see the predators trying to eat them.

Religion your not getting off the hook so easy either. For starters all the religions contain ancient texts that predate the books they are presented in today. All these ancient texts were written by ancient man, but they are not divine, and they have been manipulated by your rulers with some things left out and some things added. The ancients were people doing what people do best, pretending and making things up to distract themselves from reality just the same as we are still doing today. In fact its better to argue about which is better, science or religion, then to think about the fact that your going to die and your entire existence may have been pointless.

The ultimate truth here is that nobody knows a damn thing about where we are, why were here, or how the universe and life started. It's all conjecture and opinion so lets stop pretending, arguing, and fighting over whos made up b.s. is better. My god is better than your god because my god has a giant cock!

Maybe the ancients were smarter then we give them credit for because they told us that to find real truths you must look deep within yourself, because that's where the true universe exists. You are infinite consciousness. You are a paradox, and you have the power!

Just a simple reminder from your friend, Focused Intent.
Duh.:cool:

And welcome to the forum. :p
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
So, for starters, people like me because I speak ultimate truths that aren't sugar coated. I'll give you an example, you crawled out of a ***** and you don't have any clue where you are. Nobody does. It's the greatest mystery that nobody likes to talk about. We like to pretend that we know everything, and we like to give things names because if we name something we can claim that we know what it is, but the reality is that we don't know anything. The reality is that we are very good at pretending things just like we did when we were kids. In fact I plan to make a point that there is two realities. The natural world aka the real world, and the pretend society that we create to hide from the gruesome natural world we all fear.

Before I get off topic, Science vs Religion. Who wins? That's easy...

Answer= Nobody, we all lose, because they are the same thing.

Crowd gasps, "What did he just say?"

Yes you heard me, they are the same. Religion by definition is a belief held with faith. The same way science makes claims, uh, I mean theories, many that can't be proven, but must be believed with faith. To put it more plainly science is merely the new age religion. In the past it was scientific fact that the earth was flat and if you said otherwise you could be executed. Well in a few hundred years from now all the scientific things we believe today will be disproven. Not to say that some clever inventions haven't arisen from science like this laptop I'm typing on, but science can't be used to explain existence similar to how a holographic man could never understand what's outside the hologram.

I could get into deep heated argumentation over this no doubt, but I believe I can easily destroy anybody's scientific arguments with the following sentence.

Life itself is a paradox. Therefore all attempts at explaining life using science aka observing the universe is futile. Don't believe that life is a paradox? Here I'll show you it's easy:

There is only two possible options for life:

1. Life, and all matter, and energy, sprang into existence from nothing.
(We know that is impossible because something can not come from nothing everything must have a beginning.)

2. Life has always existed and has had no beginning.
(We know that is impossible because everything must have a beginning.)

Both of those options defy all logic yet there is no other alternatives.

There you have it indisputable proof that life itself is the greatest mystery and an unsolvable paradox. Something that all kids know. I don't think I'm smart for telling you this, in fact, I'm aware that you already knew this, but doesn't it feel refreshing to hear somebody say it?

The truth is that were scared of the natural world. Its terrifying. Imagine being in the woods alone at night with something stalking you trying to eat you. Sounds like a nightmare right? No, its real. It could happen. We live in a predatory parasitic world where to survive living sentient beings must be slaughtered and their flesh consumed for energy transference its quite sick and disturbing if you actually stop to think about it. Its no wonder we would literally do anything to distract our self from this thus we have created modern society which is mostly a huge distraction, and its no wonder the ancients used to worship the sun, their risen savior who brought light to the world and let them see the predators trying to eat them.

Religion your not getting off the hook so easy either. For starters all the religions contain ancient texts that predate the books they are presented in today. All these ancient texts were written by ancient man, but they are not divine, and they have been manipulated by your rulers with some things left out and some things added. The ancients were people doing what people do best, pretending and making things up to distract themselves from reality just the same as we are still doing today. In fact its better to argue about which is better, science or religion, then to think about the fact that your going to die and your entire existence may have been pointless.

The ultimate truth here is that nobody knows a damn thing about where we are, why were here, or how the universe and life started. It's all conjecture and opinion so lets stop pretending, arguing, and fighting over whos made up b.s. is better. My god is better than your god because my god has a giant cock!

Maybe the ancients were smarter then we give them credit for because they told us that to find real truths you must look deep within yourself, because that's where the true universe exists. You are infinite consciousness. You are a paradox, and you have the power!

Just a simple reminder from your friend, Focused Intent.
confused-cow.gif~c200

Moo?

Just for the record, the kick down the door, swagger into the room belching, culminating with artistically peeing on the carpet is generally frowned on in polite circles. Just a head's up.

Welcome to the nuthouse known affectionately as RF.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
So, for starters, people like me because I speak ultimate truths that aren't sugar coated. I'll give you an example, you crawled out of a ***** and you don't have any clue where you are. Nobody does. It's the greatest mystery that nobody likes to talk about. We like to pretend that we know everything, and we like to give things names because if we name something we can claim that we know what it is, but the reality is that we don't know anything. The reality is that we are very good at pretending things just like we did when we were kids. In fact I plan to make a point that there is two realities. The natural world aka the real world, and the pretend society that we create to hide from the gruesome natural world we all fear.

Before I get off topic, Science vs Religion. Who wins? That's easy...

Answer= Nobody, we all lose, because they are the same thing.

Crowd gasps, "What did he just say?"

Yes you heard me, they are the same. Religion by definition is a belief held with faith. The same way science makes claims, uh, I mean theories, many that can't be proven, but must be believed with faith. To put it more plainly science is merely the new age religion. In the past it was scientific fact that the earth was flat and if you said otherwise you could be executed. Well in a few hundred years from now all the scientific things we believe today will be disproven. Not to say that some clever inventions haven't arisen from science like this laptop I'm typing on, but science can't be used to explain existence similar to how a holographic man could never understand what's outside the hologram.

I could get into deep heated argumentation over this no doubt, but I believe I can easily destroy anybody's scientific arguments with the following sentence.

Life itself is a paradox. Therefore all attempts at explaining life using science aka observing the universe is futile. Don't believe that life is a paradox? Here I'll show you it's easy:

There is only two possible options for life:

1. Life, and all matter, and energy, sprang into existence from nothing.
(We know that is impossible because something can not come from nothing everything must have a beginning.)

2. Life has always existed and has had no beginning.
(We know that is impossible because everything must have a beginning.)

Both of those options defy all logic yet there is no other alternatives.

There you have it indisputable proof that life itself is the greatest mystery and an unsolvable paradox. Something that all kids know. I don't think I'm smart for telling you this, in fact, I'm aware that you already knew this, but doesn't it feel refreshing to hear somebody say it?

The truth is that were scared of the natural world. Its terrifying. Imagine being in the woods alone at night with something stalking you trying to eat you. Sounds like a nightmare right? No, its real. It could happen. We live in a predatory parasitic world where to survive living sentient beings must be slaughtered and their flesh consumed for energy transference its quite sick and disturbing if you actually stop to think about it. Its no wonder we would literally do anything to distract our self from this thus we have created modern society which is mostly a huge distraction, and its no wonder the ancients used to worship the sun, their risen savior who brought light to the world and let them see the predators trying to eat them.

Religion your not getting off the hook so easy either. For starters all the religions contain ancient texts that predate the books they are presented in today. All these ancient texts were written by ancient man, but they are not divine, and they have been manipulated by your rulers with some things left out and some things added. The ancients were people doing what people do best, pretending and making things up to distract themselves from reality just the same as we are still doing today. In fact its better to argue about which is better, science or religion, then to think about the fact that your going to die and your entire existence may have been pointless.

The ultimate truth here is that nobody knows a damn thing about where we are, why were here, or how the universe and life started. It's all conjecture and opinion so lets stop pretending, arguing, and fighting over whos made up b.s. is better. My god is better than your god because my god has a giant cock!

Maybe the ancients were smarter then we give them credit for because they told us that to find real truths you must look deep within yourself, because that's where the true universe exists. You are infinite consciousness. You are a paradox, and you have the power!

Just a simple reminder from your friend, Focused Intent.
Lot of words in what you say. Any of them worth reading?

Welcome

.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
There is only two possible options for life:

1. Life, and all matter, and energy, sprang into existence from nothing.
(We know that is impossible because something can not come from nothing everything must have a beginning.)
False. We cannot test "nothing" to see what, if any, properties it has, and we have no reason to assume that everything necessarily had or requires a "beginning" in the classical sense.

2. Life has always existed and has had no beginning.
(We know that is impossible because everything must have a beginning.)
False. See above. Also, life is comprised of matter, and matter may have always existed in some form.

There you have it indisputable proof that life itself is the greatest mystery and an unsolvable paradox. Something that all kids know. I don't think I'm smart for telling you this, in fact, I'm aware that you already knew this, but doesn't it feel refreshing to hear somebody say it?
Not really. People say it all the time.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Before I get off topic, Science vs Religion. Who wins? That's easy...

Answer= Nobody, we all lose, because they are the same thing.

Crowd gasps, "What did he just say?"

Yes you heard me, they are the same. Religion by definition is a belief held with faith. The same way science makes claims, uh, I mean theories, many that can't be proven, but must be believed with faith.

I´ll rather say: If Religion and Science don´t cooperate, they´ll both loose. The numerous cross cultural Stories of Creation holds much concrete truth which can support and correct cosmological science - and science can do the same for religion.

The standing problem is that modern science don´t take the religious telling of creation seriously because modern science have forgotten the the ancient way of describing cosmos. And the other standing problem is that many religious people take the religious texts literary.

Maybe the ancients were smarter then we give them credit for because they told us that to find real truths you must look deep within yourself, because that's where the true universe exists. You are infinite consciousness. You are a paradox, and you have the power!

Yes I´m sure our ancestors were much smarter than most people think. They really didn´t believe that the entire Universe was made by One Male God, but with both a female and male creation powers. Their stories of creation dealt specifically with the pre-creation and factual creation of the ancient known part of the Universe, namely our Milky Way.

Here, the Biblical cultural telling and dogmatic interpretation have caused a huge cosmological misunderstanding which still rules both in religion and in the scientific approach to the religious knowledge in most religions.

Our ancestors also perceived the Universe to be of a eternal stage of creation, dissolution and re-creation i. e. a cyclical Universe which of course contradicts a Big Bang and it´s linear time conception. The ancient religious understanding is that there is no beginning and no end, but eternal changes. (Which answers the question of the Hen & Egg and lots of other things)
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
So, for starters, people like me because I speak ultimate truths that aren't sugar coated. I'll give you an example, you crawled out of a ***** and you don't have any clue where you are. Nobody does. It's the greatest mystery that nobody likes to talk about. We like to pretend that we know everything, and we like to give things names because if we name something we can claim that we know what it is, but the reality is that we don't know anything. The reality is that we are very good at pretending things just like we did when we were kids. In fact I plan to make a point that there is two realities. The natural world aka the real world, and the pretend society that we create to hide from the gruesome natural world we all fear.

Before I get off topic, Science vs Religion. Who wins? That's easy...

Answer= Nobody, we all lose, because they are the same thing.

Crowd gasps, "What did he just say?"

Yes you heard me, they are the same. Religion by definition is a belief held with faith. The same way science makes claims, uh, I mean theories, many that can't be proven, but must be believed with faith. To put it more plainly science is merely the new age religion. In the past it was scientific fact that the earth was flat and if you said otherwise you could be executed. Well in a few hundred years from now all the scientific things we believe today will be disproven. Not to say that some clever inventions haven't arisen from science like this laptop I'm typing on, but science can't be used to explain existence similar to how a holographic man could never understand what's outside the hologram.

I could get into deep heated argumentation over this no doubt, but I believe I can easily destroy anybody's scientific arguments with the following sentence.

Life itself is a paradox. Therefore all attempts at explaining life using science aka observing the universe is futile. Don't believe that life is a paradox? Here I'll show you it's easy:

There is only two possible options for life:

1. Life, and all matter, and energy, sprang into existence from nothing.
(We know that is impossible because something can not come from nothing everything must have a beginning.)

2. Life has always existed and has had no beginning.
(We know that is impossible because everything must have a beginning.)

Both of those options defy all logic yet there is no other alternatives.

There you have it indisputable proof that life itself is the greatest mystery and an unsolvable paradox. Something that all kids know. I don't think I'm smart for telling you this, in fact, I'm aware that you already knew this, but doesn't it feel refreshing to hear somebody say it?

The truth is that were scared of the natural world. Its terrifying. Imagine being in the woods alone at night with something stalking you trying to eat you. Sounds like a nightmare right? No, its real. It could happen. We live in a predatory parasitic world where to survive living sentient beings must be slaughtered and their flesh consumed for energy transference its quite sick and disturbing if you actually stop to think about it. Its no wonder we would literally do anything to distract our self from this thus we have created modern society which is mostly a huge distraction, and its no wonder the ancients used to worship the sun, their risen savior who brought light to the world and let them see the predators trying to eat them.

Religion your not getting off the hook so easy either. For starters all the religions contain ancient texts that predate the books they are presented in today. All these ancient texts were written by ancient man, but they are not divine, and they have been manipulated by your rulers with some things left out and some things added. The ancients were people doing what people do best, pretending and making things up to distract themselves from reality just the same as we are still doing today. In fact its better to argue about which is better, science or religion, then to think about the fact that your going to die and your entire existence may have been pointless.

The ultimate truth here is that nobody knows a damn thing about where we are, why were here, or how the universe and life started. It's all conjecture and opinion so lets stop pretending, arguing, and fighting over whos made up b.s. is better. My god is better than your god because my god has a giant cock!

Maybe the ancients were smarter then we give them credit for because they told us that to find real truths you must look deep within yourself, because that's where the true universe exists. You are infinite consciousness. You are a paradox, and you have the power!

Just a simple reminder from your friend, Focused Intent.


You will fit right in.

Welcome to the rabble.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So, for starters, people like me because I speak ultimate truths that aren't sugar coated. I'll give you an example, you crawled out of a ***** and you don't have any clue where you are. Nobody does. It's the greatest mystery that nobody likes to talk about. We like to pretend that we know everything, and we like to give things names because if we name something we can claim that we know what it is, but the reality is that we don't know anything. The reality is that we are very good at pretending things just like we did when we were kids. In fact I plan to make a point that there is two realities. The natural world aka the real world, and the pretend society that we create to hide from the gruesome natural world we all fear.

Before I get off topic, Science vs Religion. Who wins? That's easy...

Answer= Nobody, we all lose, because they are the same thing.

Crowd gasps, "What did he just say?"

Yes you heard me, they are the same. Religion by definition is a belief held with faith. The same way science makes claims, uh, I mean theories, many that can't be proven, but must be believed with faith. To put it more plainly science is merely the new age religion. In the past it was scientific fact that the earth was flat and if you said otherwise you could be executed. Well in a few hundred years from now all the scientific things we believe today will be disproven. Not to say that some clever inventions haven't arisen from science like this laptop I'm typing on, but science can't be used to explain existence similar to how a holographic man could never understand what's outside the hologram.

I could get into deep heated argumentation over this no doubt, but I believe I can easily destroy anybody's scientific arguments with the following sentence.

Life itself is a paradox. Therefore all attempts at explaining life using science aka observing the universe is futile. Don't believe that life is a paradox? Here I'll show you it's easy:

There is only two possible options for life:

1. Life, and all matter, and energy, sprang into existence from nothing.
(We know that is impossible because something can not come from nothing everything must have a beginning.)

2. Life has always existed and has had no beginning.
(We know that is impossible because everything must have a beginning.)

Both of those options defy all logic yet there is no other alternatives.

There you have it indisputable proof that life itself is the greatest mystery and an unsolvable paradox. Something that all kids know. I don't think I'm smart for telling you this, in fact, I'm aware that you already knew this, but doesn't it feel refreshing to hear somebody say it?

The truth is that were scared of the natural world. Its terrifying. Imagine being in the woods alone at night with something stalking you trying to eat you. Sounds like a nightmare right? No, its real. It could happen. We live in a predatory parasitic world where to survive living sentient beings must be slaughtered and their flesh consumed for energy transference its quite sick and disturbing if you actually stop to think about it. Its no wonder we would literally do anything to distract our self from this thus we have created modern society which is mostly a huge distraction, and its no wonder the ancients used to worship the sun, their risen savior who brought light to the world and let them see the predators trying to eat them.

Religion your not getting off the hook so easy either. For starters all the religions contain ancient texts that predate the books they are presented in today. All these ancient texts were written by ancient man, but they are not divine, and they have been manipulated by your rulers with some things left out and some things added. The ancients were people doing what people do best, pretending and making things up to distract themselves from reality just the same as we are still doing today. In fact its better to argue about which is better, science or religion, then to think about the fact that your going to die and your entire existence may have been pointless.

The ultimate truth here is that nobody knows a damn thing about where we are, why were here, or how the universe and life started. It's all conjecture and opinion so lets stop pretending, arguing, and fighting over whos made up b.s. is better. My god is better than your god because my god has a giant cock!

Maybe the ancients were smarter then we give them credit for because they told us that to find real truths you must look deep within yourself, because that's where the true universe exists. You are infinite consciousness. You are a paradox, and you have the power!

Just a simple reminder from your friend, Focused Intent.

A little too looooong, and not focused. Includes some basic misunderstanding of science,First science does not prove theories and hypothesis. Second there are significant difference in the presuppositions, and the type and consideration of evidence between science and religion. third your alternatives to life are not coherent. There is possibility, and the most likely scenario, that life developed from non-living chemicals as described by abiogenesis, and evolved by natural processes. In this scenario if God exists this is the way of Creation of life. Fourth, the question as to what is faith in religion does not apply to science. Science is supported by objective verifiable evidence, the faith of religious belief is not.

I believe in the harmony of science and religion, but a better understanding of science and its philosophy and methods must be clearly understood first. For religion to be in harmony with science, believers need to accept science as understanding of the nature of our physical existence.

The Christian theological hypothesis of Intelligent Design is not supported by science.
 
Last edited:

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
FocusedIntent said:
Yes you heard me, they are the same. Religion by definition is a belief held with faith. The same way science makes claims, uh, I mean theories, many that can't be proven, but must be believed with faith. To put it more plainly science is merely the new age religion. In the past it was scientific fact that the earth was flat and if you said otherwise you could be executed.
I agree, religion is based on faith -- belief with insufficient evidence -- but, unlike religion, science distrusts faith and tries meticulously to avoid needing it, if at all possible.
Science begins with observations and forms hypotheses to explain them or explain their relationship to other observations. It then tests and tries to disprove this and, if possible, to test its predictiveness.
If unable to find any flaws, the scientists publish their work and let others take a whack at it, or come up with alternative hypotheses. If the hypothesis remains sound and there are no other proposed explanations, it then might be considered a theory.

A scientific theory is always provisional and always open for further observations and testing. The religious approach is not like this at all.
Religious doctrine isn't based on research and testing. It's not peer reviewed. It's not predictive and it's not falsifiable. Religion, in fact, often actively opposes research or testing of doctrine

Well in a few hundred years from now all the scientific things we believe today will be disproven. Not to say that some clever inventions haven't arisen from science like this laptop I'm typing on, but science can't be used to explain existence similar to how a holographic man could never understand what's outside the hologram.
Why do you say our theories will be disproven? Major theories are pretty well supported. What changes is usually the details.
Can a holographic man never understand what's outside of the hologram? That sounds like speculation.
There is only two possible options for life:
1. Life, and all matter, and energy, sprang into existence from nothing.
(We know that is impossible because something can not come from nothing everything must have a beginning.)

2. Life has always existed and has had no beginning.
(We know that is impossible because everything must have a beginning.)

Both of those options defy all logic yet there is no other alternatives.
I don't believe these conclusions are valid.
The truth is that were scared of the natural world. Its terrifying. Imagine being in the woods alone at night with something stalking you trying to eat you. Sounds like a nightmare right? No, its real. It could happen. We live in a predatory parasitic world where to survive living sentient beings must be slaughtered and their flesh consumed for energy transference its quite sick and disturbing if you actually stop to think about it. Its no wonder we would literally do anything to distract our self from this thus we have created modern society which is mostly a huge distraction, and its no wonder the ancients used to worship the sun, their risen savior who brought light to the world and let them see the predators trying to eat them.
Some of us are not so terrified of the world or fearful of pointlessness; smaller amygdalae, I suppose.

And welcome to RF!
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I agree, religion is based on faith -- belief with insufficient evidence -- but, unlike religion, science distrusts faith and tries meticulously to avoid needing it, if at all possible.
Science begins with observations and forms hypotheses to explain them or explain their relationship to other observations. It then tests and tries to disprove this and, if possible, to test its predictiveness.
If unable to find any flaws, the scientists publish their work and let others take a whack at it, or come up with alternative hypotheses. If the hypothesis remains sound and there are no other proposed explanations, it then might be considered a theory.

A scientific theory is always provisional and always open for further observations and testing. The religious approach is not like this at all.
Religious doctrine isn't based on research and testing. It's not peer reviewed. It's not predictive and it's not falsifiable. Religion, in fact, often actively opposes research or testing of doctrine

Why do you say our theories will be disproven? Major theories are pretty well supported. What changes is usually the details.
Can a holographic man never understand what's outside of the hologram? That sounds like speculation.
I don't believe these conclusions are valid.
Some of us are not so terrified of the world or fearful of pointlessness; smaller amygdalae, I suppose.

And welcome to RF!

More conflated misinformation concerning science and how science works, and to numerous to respond again. Read my previous post. To add, you made a few good points about science.

Again and again . . . science does not try and prove or disprove theories and hypothesis.
 
Last edited:

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I believe in God because of science
and we are here to learn all that we can before we die

how's that? for resolve
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Your solution fails to work for me, but if it works for you, more power to you I suppose. Aspects of your argument that I find a bit nonsensical:
  • Using the phrase "ultimate truth" at all in the argument (I don't believe in any such thing)
  • Suggesting the sciences and the worlds religions are necessarily equivalent when it comes to the manner in which one has faith in them (there are, in most cases, some important distinctions; furthermore many religions are not faith-based in the first place)
  • The insistence that life is a paradox (the origin of biological organisms on this planet is fairly well explained and articulated)
  • Claiming that we are scared of the natural world (the human-nature relationship is far more dimensional than this would suppose; my own relation is grounded on nothing of the sort)
  • Claiming that all religions contain ancient texts that predate books (there is no evidence of this and it ignores that most religions through human history have been oral traditions)
  • Giving humans little to no credit for any knowledge they possess (I think the position taken here is too extreme)
Honestly, the only bit of the OP I agree with at all is the general lesson of humility, which could be expressed without all of the above.

Also, be sure to review the site rules. Your post reads a bit like a sermon, and Rule 8 is a thing.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Science vs Religion. Who wins? That's easy

science-vs-religion.jpg


Religion by definition is a belief held with faith.

That's not my definition of religion. A good definition includes everything that belongs and excludes that which doesn't, which is why defining a bird as an animal that flies is a poor definition, since it admits bats and excludes penguins and ostriches.

Likewise with your definition of religion. It admits ideas that are not religious, but are faith based, such as climate denial.

science makes claims, uh, I mean theories, many that can't be proven, but must be believed with faith.

Nothing in science must be believed by faith. We have evidence to support our belief that the scientific method is valid, and the competent critical thinker recognizes that his present position is always tentative and amenable to revision pending the arrival of new evidence. Such belief doesn't become faith until it ossifies into unjustified certitude impervious to contradictory evidence.

Actually, nothing in science needs to be believed at all. Just enjoy its fruits.

In the past it was scientific fact that the earth was flat

Nope. That was never a scientific fact or any kind of fact. It was a reasonable first guess based on sensory experience, one that worked for most purposes. In that sense, it was a useful hypothesis until reality contradicted it. Then, a new idea was needed to account for the new evidence. The difference hardly matters until we get to the point that we can travel great enough distances that it matters whether the earth has an edge or not.

Likewise with the geocentric model of what is now called the solar system. It was adequate to account for most observed phenomena until new observations came along better explained by an alternative model.

Whatever model works is adequate. The purpose of science isn't necessarily to discern truth as much as it is to predict and when possible control nature. We call this empirical adequacy. If an idea is useful, we use it without too much concern about proofs, ultimate truth, objective truth, absolute truth, or other sterile speculations.

Life itself is a paradox. Therefore all attempts at explaining life using science aka observing the universe is futile.

History contradicts you. Science has made great strides in understanding what life is, how it first arose, and how it evolved into the assortment of creatures we see around us. Life is probably inevitable wherever possible, and not dependent on unlikely occurrences beyond the combination of circumstances necessary for it to form.

There you have it indisputable proof that life itself is the greatest mystery and an unsolvable paradox.

Your argument is neither indisputable nor proof. Proof is that which convinces. I'm pretty sure that you convinced nobody. Those that would agree with you already did.

Consciousness is a greater mystery than life.

We live in a predatory parasitic world where to survive living sentient beings must be slaughtered and their flesh consumed for energy transference its quite sick and disturbing if you actually stop to think about it.

That's actually a pretty good argument against the claim that a good and loving god is responsible.
 
Welcome to RF. Might I respectfully suggest that you acquaint yourself with the constructs and nomenclature of logical fallacies before you use too many more? Wiki is your friend here.

I am not presenting a logical fallacy, I am pointing out that life itself, especially consciousness, is a paradox.

False. We cannot test "nothing" to see what, if any, properties it has, and we have no reason to assume that everything necessarily had or requires a "beginning" in the classical sense.


False. See above. Also, life is comprised of matter, and matter may have always existed in some form.


Not really. People say it all the time.


If something has always existed with no beginning, or it has come into existence from a state of non existence, that constitutes a paradox.


 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Somebody once combined science and religion. We needed Batman and Robin to sort out the resulting mess.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I am not presenting a logical fallacy, I am pointing out that life itself, especially consciousness, is a paradox.

If something has always existed with no beginning, or it has come into existence from a state of non existence, that constitutes a paradox.
I really should just get it over and put FI on IGNORE right now.

Definition of paradox
  1. a tenet contrary to received opinion
  2. a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true:a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true:an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises
  3. one (such as a person, situation, or action) having seemingly contradictory qualities or phases
and:

Logical Fallacies: Argument from ignorance
(from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
  1. true
  2. false
  3. unknown between true or false
  4. being unknowable (among the first three).
Now do you understand why it is not a paradox and that you are advancing an argument from ignorance?

You make the unsupported claim that "Both of those options defy all logic yet there is no other alternatives (sic)."

Yet, there clearly is another alternative: e.g., at this time, insufficient information is available to prove the proposition either way.

But wait, there's more! You claim that, "Religion by definition is a belief held with faith. The same way science makes claims, uh, I mean theories, many that can't be proven, but must be believed with faith." You are ignoring the difference, that science is evidence based. Scientific Theories do not require faith, they require evidence.

... and there's still more: "In the past it was scientific fact that the earth was flat and if you said otherwise you could be executed." That was never scientific fact, every dumb sailor and anyone who lived in a port town knew better, and they were not executed. Flat Earth was a religious faith based tenet held despite clear observed evidence to the contrary.

... wait, we're not done: "Well in a few hundred years from now all the scientific things we believe today will be disproven. " Rather a sweeping claim that is sheer nonsense to boot. It is likely that some scientific theories will be modified and new theories will be defined, but I doubt that "all the scientific things we believe today will be disproven."

There's more of the same, but why bother?
 
Top