Science seeks physical "proof" where Spiritual practice seeks awakening from within.

[Spirit of Light]

A very clear thing is that Science does seek physical proof that can be measured, whereas Spiritual practice measure the wisdom that arises from within each person, so it is a personal answer that arises, and it will differ from person to person what they have awakened to.

What part of the situation in both science and spiritual practice is difficult for you to grasp?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Not sure if I'm answering this question quite correctly, but I'm having a difficult time seeing some religious people, not pointing at the OP, just in general, think of science as anti-religious, when a lot of scientists seem to be theist.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Not sure if I'm answering this question quite correctly, but I'm having a difficult time seeing some religious people, not pointing at the OP, just in general, think of science as anti-religious, when a lot of scientists see to be theist.

I would not say your answer is wrong according to the OP The reason for this OP comes from a discussion i was apart of where the "science geeks" where very much surprised that i was not looking at physical "evidence" to "prove" the teaching to be right or wrong

So the OP is a bit about how different people see the two different ways to look for answer that satisfy them enough

 

[Polymath257]

First, science does NOT seek 'proof'. It seeks testable theories that can be actively challenged and still pass all tests.

Next, the term 'physical' is also a misnomer here. What is required is *public* testing, so that each person can observe what is going on. It is only later than the regions where this works are labeled 'physical'.

If a 'truth' varies from person to person, it isn't actually 'true'. The 'truth' is *defined* by that which does not depend on the individual observer.

Now, wisdom and knowledge are different goals. Science (mostly) looks for knowledge while spirituality (mostly) looks for wisdom.

 

[Spirit of Light]

First, science does NOT seek 'proof'. It seeks testable theories that can be actively challenged and still pass all tests.

Next, the term 'physical' is also a misnomer here. What is required is *public* testing, so that each person can observe what is going on. It is only later than the regions where this works are labeled 'physical'.

If a 'truth' varies from person to person, it isn't actually 'true'. The 'truth' is *defined* by that which does not depend on the individual observer.

Now, wisdom and knowledge are different goals. Science (mostly) looks for knowledge while spirituality (mostly) looks for wisdom.

1: [QUOTEFirst, science does NOT seek 'proof'. It seeks testable theories that can be actively challenged and still pass all tests.][/QUOTE] So physical proof
2:

Next, the term 'physical' is also a misnomer here. What is required is *public* testing, so that each person can observe what is going on. It is only later than the regions where this works are labeled 'physical'.

So again proof of theory and often that is a physical result.
3:

If a 'truth' varies from person to person, it isn't actually 'true'. The 'truth' is *defined* by that which does not depend on the individual observer.

The level of wisdom one realize in spiritual practice will be different from person to person. so we will understand the same truth in different ways because, we can see the truth we have realized, but if someone comes along who have realized higher truth, they would naturally understand more then others.

 

[Windwalker]

A very clear thing is that Science does seek physical proof that can be measured, whereas Spiritual practice measure the wisdom that arises from within each person, so it is a personal answer that arises, and it will differ from person to person what they have awakened to.

What part of the situation in both science and spiritual practice is difficult for you to grasp?

I don't agree that it's a purely subjective call as to what one is awakened to. Say that to a Zen Master. Being awakened to the idea you are the 2nd coming of Jesus, is not Enlightenment.

In reality, Awakening can be approached scientifically, in the broad sense of what the sciences follow which are in three basic strands: Injunction, Investigation or experimentation, and confirmation of results. In following a practice, the seeker or "researcher" follows the guidelines of the experiment through meditative techniques. Then they gather or collect the data from following the experiment and report their results, i.e;, "I had a satori experience". Then other qualified experimentator compare their results, with the result of others, with your results. A young student saying, "I've arrived", when the master looks at what he's arrived to, sends him back for more training on the equipment.

So it does follow a broadly scientific approach, while it's tools and techniques are specifically geared towards interior explorations, as oppose to exterior one's in the empiric sciences.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don't agree that it's a purely subjective call as to what one is awakened to. Say that to a Zen Master. In reality, Awakening can be approached scientifically, in the broad sense of what the sciences follow which are in three basic strands: Injunction, Investigation or experimentation, and confirmation of results. In following a practice, the seeker or "researcher" follows the guidelines of the experiment through meditative techniques. Then they gather or collect the data from following the experiment and report their results, i.e;, "I had a satori experience". Then other qualified experimentator compare their results, with the result of others, with your results. A young student saying, "I've arrived", when the master looks at what he's arrived to, sends him back for more training on the equipment.

So it does follow a broadly scientific approach, while it's tools and techniques are specifically geared towards interior explorations, as oppose to exterior ones in the empiric sciences.

Are you allowed to ask a question to a Zen monk? or ask questions about the teaching in Zen? Did not the founder of Zen Buddhism say that since Buddha Sakyamuni has said, "I have not thaught any Dharma" that there is nothing to learn, so one should not ask questions? only sit in silence (meditation) Or am I Misunderstanding your answer?

 

[Skwim]

A very clear thing is that Science does seek physical proof that can be measured, whereas Spiritual practice measure the wisdom that arises from within each person,

So what is the yardstick that spiritual practice uses to measures this wisdom? And as has been pointed out, science doesn't seek 'proof. Proof is only relevant in logic, mathematics, and alcohol content.

What part of the situation in both science and spiritual practice is difficult for you to grasp?

Neither. Science operates through rules and reason, whereas the spiritual operates through personal need and imagination.

.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A very clear thing is that Science does seek physical proof that can be measured, whereas Spiritual practice measure the wisdom that arises from within each person, so it is a personal answer that arises, and it will differ from person to person what they have awakened to.

What part of the situation in both science and spiritual practice is difficult for you to grasp?

Maybe the appropriate word is materialist or humanist view? Science isn't a philosophy so I'm not sure how to compare it to moral, philosophical, and spiritual views if it even compares at all.

Here's something I found interesting when connecting the two

Science (or humanism?) isn't hard to grasp. When I read the word, I think more psychology and in part physiologically in relation to one's spiritual experiences. A lot of it because it has to do with the mind, conscious awareness, endorphins and dopamine, among other traits that make up spiritual experiences. That, and brain issues kind of puts a light to that.

Spirituality is difficult to grasp because everyone has different definitions of it. Probably some similar things is that it's not material, it's a "special" feeling, it's personal, and "can't be described in words." Probably why I can't understand it. I don't think many people take their spiritual experiences a part for fear (maybe) that it would discredit it as a spiritual experience rather than mundane.

I'm not too much of science person. Humanist to an extent. I never had a hardcore spiritual experience so above is my interpretation of your question.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Neither. Science operates through rules and reason, whereas the spiritual operates through personal need and imagination.

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Not sure i agree with you on it fully Yes science has their rules. But so do spiritual practice too, it is very clear that if we do not highten our moral standard and work on our virtue we will struggle to realize the truth, so in a way, you can say that the "Rules/Guidelines" are strick in spiritual practice too

 

[Windwalker]

Are you allowed to ask a question to a Zen monk? or ask questions about the teaching in Zen? Did not the founder of Zen Buddhism say that since Buddha Sakyamuni has said, "I have not thaught any Dharma" that there is nothing to learn, so one should not ask questions? only sit in silence (meditation) Or am I Misunderstanding your answer?

You are misunderstanding the point of it. Not just anyone claiming to be Awakened, really is. It's like me practicing Taijiquan. I can fancy myself to have arrived as a grandmaster, until other masters look at me as still working out all my ego trip stuff, which would doubtless be the case.

The same thing applies to those following any traditional path with masters as their guides. Once that student awakens, it will be obvious to the master. In other words, validation by others is part of the system. And that system follows scientific guidelines, generally speaking. It's not just a subjective freeforall, "you have to respect my enlightenment" claims from students still in their egos.

 

[Skwim]

Not sure i agree with you on it fully Yes science has their rules. But so do spiritual practice too, it is very clear that if we do not highten our moral standard and work on our virtue we will struggle to realize the truth, so in a way, you can say that the "Rules/Guidelines" are strick in spiritual practice too

Curious: what are some of the rules of spiritual practice? And what is the nature of this "truth" we need to realize?

.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You are misunderstanding the point of it. Not just anyone claiming to be Awakened, really is. It's like me practicing Taijiquan. I can fancy myself to have arrived as a grandmaster, until other masters look at me as still working out all my ego trip stuff, which would doubtless be the case.

The same thing applies to those following any traditional path with masters as their guides. Once that student awakens, it will be obvious to the master. In other words, validation by others is part of the system. And that system follows scientific guidelines, generally speaking. It's not just a subjective freeforall, "you have to respect my enlightenment" claims from students still in their egos.

Yes, look like I misunderstood your point in the previous post you made

 

[Spirit of Light]

Curious: what are some of the rules of spiritual practice? And what is the nature of this "truth" we need to realize?

.

The guidelines (some call them rules) are often about how to heighten our morality, how to let go of attachments, how to behave toward others, the clearest religious rules that mostly everyone knows about is the 10 commandments in Christianity. if they do not follow those, they will struggle to realize the truth within the Christian teaching, and an example.

The truth from spiritual teaching are of course explained in different ways, depending on what spiritual path/teaching you look at. But for Falun Gong, the realization of Zhen, Shan, ren or truthfulness, compassion, forbearance are essential to realizing the purest version of for us to reach consummation or Enlightenment, Those tree aspects are within everything both physically and nonphysical. even within each one of them, you can find the two others, so Zhen shan ren are the building blocks of everything on a very microscopic and in the vastness of space(and outside the known space)

 

[osgart]

I sense there is an objective standard to moral virtue. Is not honesty in fact honesty? We all judge what the other deserves to hear.

If the words and meanings were not effective truthes then they would hold no substance and be of no use to anybody. Sometimes good objective meanings get trampled under foot. Such is the case with virtues. We all use, or work with virtues everyday whether we regard them or not.

All of us want informative, and honest answers. All of us need compassion at some point. Understanding is a human need. Some of us want dignity, and to have our relationships honored. We all seek wisdom, knowledge, worthy loyalties, peace, contentment, joy, happiness, love, justice, care, lawfulness, rights, deserves, etc. These are all virtues.
Not idle words of no effect.

Granted not all people seek virtues and the better practice and effect of them. But for those who do, they are a source of fulfillment.

This to me is spirituality. And it can't be avoided in life without woes and troubles.
So spirituality is not hocus pocus.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I would not say your answer is wrong according to the OP The reason for this OP comes from a discussion i was apart of where the "science geeks" where very much surprised that i was not looking at physical "evidence" to "prove" the teaching to be right or wrong

So the OP is a bit about how different people see the two different ways to look for answer that satisfy them enough

This point actually made it clear to me what I have a problem comprehending regarding spirituality. The question is even difficult to put into words.

I think it basically comes down to: Why believe anything if there is no verifiable evidence that it is true?
What causes someone to do that? Feelings?

I have a big problem with this when someone says that something is true and that I am lost/evil/a servant of Satan/ blind, etc, and expect me to believe something qith no verifiable evidence.

 

[Spirit of Light]

This point actually made it clear to me what I have a problem comprehending regarding spirituality. The question is even difficult to put into words.

I think it basically comes down to: Why believe anything if there is no verifiable evidence that it is true?
What causes someone to do that? Feelings?

I have a big problem with this when someone says that something is true and that I am lost/evil/a servant of Satan/ blind, etc, and expect me to believe something qith no verifiable evidence.

Did you see the OP I made about inborn quality when it comes to spiritual practice? that OP may answer the question you have

 

[Samael_Khan]

Did you see the OP I made about inborn quality when it comes to spiritual practice? that OP may answer the question you have

I will definitely look at that OP. Thanks.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I will definitely look at that OP. Thanks.

Very welcome

 

[Nakosis]

A very clear thing is that Science does seek physical proof that can be measured, whereas Spiritual practice measure the wisdom that arises from within each person, so it is a personal answer that arises, and it will differ from person to person what they have awakened to.

What part of the situation in both science and spiritual practice is difficult for you to grasp?

So what do you mean by wisdom?