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Science or faith

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The great flood was a vast event that carried lot of material. It had different phases when water flooded and rained and later its level decreased to glaciers and when the drowned material was compressed more. Stratigraphic evidence is for example the oil, gas and coal that was buried organic material.
The oil, gas and coal formed, in situ, millions of years ago. When did you say the flood was?
Bible tells it came when the "fountains of great deep" were burst open. there was only one continent at the beginning and bellow it there was a vast water reservoir. When the flood came, the original continent was broken, collapsed and sunk. That caused heavy rain and also flooding.
Pangea began breaking apart ~175 million years ago. Where was this vast water reservoir, and where did it go? How does a continent just sink?
Here you can find images that show the principle. I know they are not very good, but I hope you can understand the point.
Are you a disciple of Jesus?
The link is nonsense.
The water level has decreased, because drowned material has been compressed more and also because lot of it is in glaciers. Amount of water is the same, only the level of ocean floors has come down, which makes it look like dry land is rising.
There is not, and never has been, enough water on Earth to cover high mountains.
No intelligent reason to assume that temperature, when you understand correctly how it happened.
So you're saying the water didn't rain, but welled up from below?
Bible tells animals came to Noah on their own.
The last time we had a supercontinent, the animals were very different from today's. How did the snails and microbes make it to the ark? How did the flora survive?
went by pairs to Noah into the ark, male and female, as God commanded Noah.
This isn't evidence, just folklore.
Remember, at that point there was only single continent. And, I would assume there was for example single kind of bears and all modern bears are offspring of those. Similarly as there was single kind of humans and now we have millions of different looking humans. This means, I count for example all bears to be same species.
There were no bears a hundred, seventy five million years ago. no humans either, for that matter.
And how did they spread after the flood. After the flood, there was the ice age, climate cooled because of the heavy rain and clouds. That is why the water level decreased so that it was possible to travel to far distances, which I assume happened gradually as the animals multiplied.
A Paleozoic ice age? Links, please.
No good reason to assume such thing happened.
So all the microbes and tiny creatures survived all that time under water? How?
Trees can survive as seeds or roots underground. Corals could have been in slightly different area, depending on the level of the ocean. And humans survived as told in the Bible.
We're obviously talking about an entirely different time period. The last time we had a supercontinent was a long time before the six to ten thousand years BP claimed by most young-Earth creationists. When was this flood, again?
I would assume the ark was built as shown in the plans here:
Noah's Ark
Why can no modern engineer imagine a wooden, seaworthy vessel large enough to house all the animals and supplies?
I think that would be the best design in such situation. And I think there was about 4200 animals in the ark (as calculated i the link above). Bible doesn't tell accurately how it was handled, but if I would have to do it, I would do the ark as in the plans, place the food in the rooms that are higher levels, because there they remain dry and it is also possible to have it work almost like automatic feeding system. With that structure there could be separate drinking area and on the edges area for waste.
Only 4200 animals? You'd need room for a lot more than that, plus supplies, &c. How would such a vessel be constructed by one family? Automatic systems? You should tell zookeepers about this.
Most animals can eat by themselves, if there is food. Many animals could have been not yet fully grown when they went to ark and many animals procreate so fast that some of them could have been food for others. Also, I think eating fish could have been possible.
Was this vast sea salt or fresh? How did the salt-water species survive if fresh, and vice versa?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yeah, I know the explanations. I think the official plate tectonics theory is not good, because it really can't offer any realistic force that would raise for example Himalaya. It shows that it does not understand the forces needed for that (F=mg). For example continental crust is much more heavier than oceanic crust, for example in mountain areas. There would be a great force pulling that thicker crust into same level with surrounding crust. The official theory can't really show any force that would be able to counter the weight of mountains.
So, all these geologists that have studied this for over a century don't know what they're talking about?

C'mon.

Maybe consider getting a subscription to "Scientific American" as you will see periodic articles about this there.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Maybe consider getting a subscription to "Scientific American" as you will see periodic articles about this there.
I'd suggest some secondary school science books first. Without a solid basis he won't be able to understand Scientific American articles.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
So, all these geologists that have studied this for over a century don't know what they're talking about?

So, you think people have never before made any mistakes in science? I think they have many things correct. In this case I think they just have made misinterpretation.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
So you are not basing your belief on the bible but on a single random dude on the internet who doesn't speak English well enough to put his phantasies into coherent sentences?

Sorry to hear that the English is not good. I hope you can get the point anyway. I think the ideas are from the Bible.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
The oil, gas and coal formed, in situ, millions of years ago. When did you say the flood was?

I don’t know when it was. But, there is no scientific reason to believe it takes millions of years for oil, gas and coal to form. It is for example possible to produce oil with Fischer-Tropsch process in relatively short time. When organic material sunk and was buried to sediments, the conditions were good for forming oil for example.

Pangea began breaking apart ~175 million years ago. Where was this vast water reservoir, and where did it go? How does a continent just sink?

No good reason to believe in millions of years. It seems the original continent was relatively round and it surrounded Pacific Ocean. Arctic sea, Atlantic and Indian Ocean floors were abowe the vast water reservoir. The land above the was like vault structure. Because the water could not escape from below, before the flood, it also could have supported the land above it, until something broke the earth shell. I don’t know what broke the earth shell above the water, but when it was broken, the water could escape and it would not have supported earth the land anymore, which is why the land sunk.

The link is nonsense.

What did you not understand?

There is not, and never has been, enough water on Earth to cover high mountains.

In current form it may be impossible, but if the form was different, it can be possible.

So you're saying the water didn't rain, but welled up from below?

I think that is what the Bible says in this:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep were burst open, and the sky's windows were opened. The rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:11-12

The last time we had a supercontinent, the animals were very different from today's.

Sorry, I have no good reason to believe that.

How did the snails and microbes make it to the ark? How did the flora survive? … …So all the microbes and tiny creatures survived all that time under water? How?

Many creatures and plants can survive under the surface of earth as seeds or eggs. It is possible also that there were cavities, or caves that remained dry. Bible tells that everything on the surface of dry land died. there are many things that could have survived under the surface.

Why can no modern engineer imagine a wooden, seaworthy vessel large enough to house all the animals and supplies?

Maybe because no one has ever asked it from them? I believe many modern engineers could develop a way to build a wooden raft to survive the conditions and to be relatively easy to build. Many are unfortunately misled by the inside the box atheistic thinking, when they assume everything should have been as they imagine modern boat.

Only 4200 animals? You'd need room for a lot more than that, plus supplies, &c. How would such a vessel be constructed by one family? Automatic systems?

They had quite long time for it. And if it was built like the log raft design, it wouldn’t have been very difficult. I could do it also, if I would have the time and the wood.

Automatic system means basically feeding automatic that works by the principle that things fall (If you don’t know about this, I recommend to learn about Mr. Newton).

I think there would have been enough room, if you understand that it would have been enough to have the different animal families, not current animal species. Current animal species are not very reasonable classification of animals.

Was this vast sea salt or fresh? How did the salt-water species survive if fresh, and vice versa?

It probably was similar to Baltic sea. Baltic sea has areas with different salinity levels, which is why fresh and salt water animals can survive there. Heavy rain made probably freshwater areas and the water that was released form the “fountains of great deep”, was perhaps saltier.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don’t know when it was. But, there is no scientific reason to believe it takes millions of years for oil, gas and coal to form. It is for example possible to produce oil with Fischer-Tropsch process in relatively short time. When organic material sunk and was buried to sediments, the conditions were good for forming oil for example.
The fossil fuel deposits are dateble.
No good reason to believe in millions of years. It seems the original continent was relatively round and it surrounded Pacific Ocean. Arctic sea, Atlantic and Indian Ocean floors were abowe the vast water reservoir. The land above the was like vault structure. Because the water could not escape from below, before the flood, it also could have supported the land above it, until something broke the earth shell. I don’t know what broke the earth shell above the water, but when it was broken, the water could escape and it would not have supported earth the land anymore, which is why the land sunk.
Many good reasons to believe in millions of years, and what was this "original continent?"
Land masses have been drifting around for Billions of years, occasionally coming together into a supercontinent, then splitting apart again. There is reason to believe this. Scientists didn't just dream it up.

I get the impression you're not aware of how long the planet's been here, or how tiny a segment of this history we've been here.

Please post links to this original continent surrounding the Pacific ocean, and some link explaining all this subterranean water. Where did you hear of all this?
All this would, of course, have predated life on Earth.
What did you not understand?
It's not that I didn't understand. It's that the facts and conclusions are pure fantasy. They're religious doctrine in a lab coat.
In current form it may be impossible, but if the form was different, it can be possible.
... and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. :rolleyes:

So what's that mean? Form of what? Is there some reason to think there was some other "form" of something?
I think that is what the Bible says in this:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep were burst open, and the sky's windows were opened. The rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:11-12
Sorry, I have no good reason to believe that.
Evidence, please?
Sorry, I have no good reason to believe that
The last supercontinent was roamed by dinosaurs, wasn't it?

Were these what Noah had on board the ark? Was the dove he released actually a pterosaur?

There were no humans for a couple hundred million years after the last supercontinent.
Again, we're talking about radically different time periods. Your claim of a supercontinent puts the event hundreds of millions of years ago. Your mention of humans and large mammals put's it almost yesterday. Which is it?
Many creatures and plants can survive under the surface of earth as seeds or eggs. It is possible also that there were cavities, or caves that remained dry. Bible tells that everything on the surface of dry land died. there are many things that could have survived under the surface.
Few land animals or plants can survive over a month under water.
How deep is this "surface" the Bible mentions? I still don't understand how a functional ecosystem survived such an event. The authors of the story don't understand biology.
Maybe because no one has ever asked it from them? I believe many modern engineers could develop a way to build a wooden raft to survive the conditions and to be relatively easy to build. Many are unfortunately misled by the inside the box atheistic thinking, when they assume everything should have been as they imagine modern boat.
People have asked for commentary from engineers and shipbuilders many times, for a century or more. Boatbuilders have even attempted to reconstruct it -- and failed. Not a year goes by that I don't see some documentary on the ark on TV.
You don't seem very familiar with the details of this controversy you're so sure of.
They had quite long time for it. And if it was built like the log raft design, it wouldn’t have been very difficult. I could do it also, if I would have the time and the wood.
A large enough, wooden, seaworthy vessel could not be built, according to engineers. Maybe you should publish a plan in an engineering journal, and show them how you'd do it.
Automatic system means basically feeding automatic that works by the principle that things fall (If you don’t know about this, I recommend to learn about Mr. Newton).
I don't care what the design of this automated system might be.
Today's engineering is far superior to anything available in Noah's day, yet no zoo today has been able to come up with one.
I think there would have been enough room, if you understand that it would have been enough to have the different animal families, not current animal species. Current animal species are not very reasonable classification of animals.
So today's diverse fauna evolved from a few ancestral forms on the ark? "Evolved?" Now we're back to the date of the event. How long would you say this evolution of new kinds took?
It probably was similar to Baltic sea. Baltic sea has areas with different salinity levels, which is why fresh and salt water animals can survive there. Heavy rain made probably freshwater areas and the water that was released form the “fountains of great deep”, was perhaps saltier.
Salinity gradients are common, all over the world. The obligate freshies live in the fresh section, the salties in the salt section. Those species that can tolerate varying levels swim back and forth.
But a radical change in salinity in less than a month would see a massive die-off.

Q: What were Noah and his pets breathing, considering that no oxygen was being produced by either oceanic phytoplankton or terrestrial forests?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
So, you think people have never before made any mistakes in science?
Why did you resort to this, especially since I never made such a claim and I never would?

In this case I think they just have made misinterpretation.
Your choice, but let me just add that I left the fundamentalist Protestant church I grew up in partially because of their rejection of even the most basic science and later joined a church that didn't do as such.
 

1213

Well-Known Member

Land masses have been drifting around for Billions of years, occasionally coming together into a supercontinent, then splitting apart again.

Sorry, I don’t believe that, because it shows lack of understanding of basic forces (G=mg).

…The last supercontinent was roamed by dinosaurs, wasn't it?

Maybe there were at some point dinosaurs. I think it is possible that they died before the flood event.

…Again, we're talking about radically different time periods. Your claim of a supercontinent puts the event hundreds of millions of years ago. Your mention of humans and large mammals put's it almost yesterday. Which is it?

I don’t know the time, but I don’t believe in millions of years.

…People have asked for commentary from engineers and shipbuilders many times, for a century or more. Boatbuilders have even attempted to reconstruct it -- and failed. Not a year goes by that I don't see some documentary on the ark on TV… …A large enough, wooden, seaworthy vessel could not be built, according to engineers. Maybe you should publish a plan in an engineering journal, and show them how you'd do it.

Then they are note very good engineers. For anyone interested, the plans can be found here:
Noah's Ark

…Today's engineering is far superior to anything available in Noah's day,

Difficult to believe that, when they apparently could not plan even a wooden raft that could carry lot of animals and group of humans.

…Q: What were Noah and his pets breathing, considering that no oxygen was being produced by either oceanic phytoplankton or terrestrial forests?

I don’t see any reason why plankton could not have produced enough oxygen at that time similarly as nowadays. There were less those that consume oxygen, and lot of water for plankton, should have been easy for plankton to produce enough oxygen.

Plankton may be small, but these tiny drifters play a huge role in aquatic ecosystems. Many animals, including whales, rely on them for food. Plankton that are plants, known as phytoplankton, grow and get their own energy through photosynthesis and are responsible for producing an estimated 80% of the world’s oxygen.
https://eos.org/research-spotlights/worlds-biggest-oxygen-producers-living-in-swirling-ocean-waters
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Then they are note very good engineers. For anyone interested, the plans can be found here:
Noah's Ark
There's an exact replica using the biblical specs in Amsterdam harbor the last I read on this, and they won't even send it into out in the harbor because the computer models indicate that it's way too tipsy even without a load.

Again, taking that narrative as being literal history doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Again, taking that narrative as being literal history doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
He doesn't even take it literally - only those parts he thinks he has an explanation for. Note that he ignores the firmament as it is literally described.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sorry, I don’t believe that, because it shows lack of understanding of basic forces (G=mg).
And your reply indicates a total ignorance of science and our current understanding of geology.
Do you have any idea why we believe this?
Maybe there were at some point dinosaurs. I think it is possible that they died before the flood event.
There's evidence for dinos. I'm still waiting for any evidence of the flood. You have no empirical evidence. You have a story in a book of folklore.
I don’t know the time, but I don’t believe in millions of years.
You have no idea whatever why science believes in an old Earth, do you?
Then they are note very good engineers. For anyone interested, the plans can be found here:
Noah's Ark
I have no doubt a real engineer would find these "plans" laughable.
I don’t see any reason why plankton could not have produced enough oxygen at that time similarly as nowadays. There were less those that consume oxygen, and lot of water for plankton, should have been easy for plankton to produce enough oxygen.
Sudden, nutrient-poor fresh water. An altered pH, Heavy cloud cover. How could a viable population have survived?
Plankton may be small, but these tiny drifters play a huge role in aquatic ecosystems. Many animals, including whales, rely on them for food. Plankton that are plants, known as phytoplankton, grow and get their own energy through photosynthesis and are responsible for producing an estimated 80% of the world’s oxygen.
Your point?

You feign reason, and throw out a few 'scientific' terms. You link to a few laughable religious and pseudoscience sites, and the occasional scientific site you don't understand, yet, with a sixth-grade understanding of science and reason, you maintain that all the evidence and analysis by experts in their fields is wrong. You refuse to consider -- or even look at -- actual evidence. You refuse to learn even the basics of the relevant fields.
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
... I'm still waiting for any evidence of the flood. You have no empirical evidence. ...

So, you think oil, gas and coal fields don’t exist? They are one evidence of the flood, because they show that vast amount of organic material was buried once.

Sudden, nutrient-poor fresh water. An altered pH, Heavy cloud cover. How could a viable population have survived?

There is no intelligent reason to assume that there were not suitable conditions for different kind of species to survive. I think it is reasonable to assume there were areas with different conditions so that enough species could survive.

...you maintain that all the evidence and analysis by experts in their fields is wrong. You refuse to consider -- or even look at -- ...

It ruins your credibility, when you make blatantly false claims. I don’t claim “all the evidence and analysis by experts in their fields is wrong”.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
There's an exact replica using the biblical specs in Amsterdam harbor...

And what are the specs, same length, width and height? Bible doesn’t tell lot of how the Ark was built. No reason to assume it was like the Amsterdam version. I think the Amsterdam version is not very intelligent, because it is not easy to build and it probably would not survive. For example, the log raft design that I have shown, is much more secure, because its floating is not based on modern wooden boat hull system, but to the fact that logs float, because they are lighter than water. Also, the joints in the log raft are flexible, which makes it better for to survive, it would not be broken easily, even if twisted in waves.

The Noah's ark was probably similar to this, but bigger and the log joints were probably like in traditional log house so that the logs would not escape.

iu
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
And what are the specs, same length, width and height? Bible doesn’t tell lot of how the Ark was built. No reason to assume it was like the Amsterdam version. I think the Amsterdam version is not very intelligent, because it is not easy to build and it probably would not survive. For example, the log raft design that I have shown, is much more secure, because its floating is not based on modern wooden boat hull system, but to the fact that logs float, because they are lighter than water. Also, the joints in the log raft are flexible, which makes it better for to survive, it would not be broken easily, even if twisted in waves.

The Noah's ark was probably similar to this, but bigger and the log joints were probably like in traditional log house so that the logs would not escape.

iu
It appears that all you are doing is inventing stuff as you go along.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So, you think oil, gas and coal fields don’t exist? They are one evidence of the flood, because they show that vast amount of organic material was buried once.
Nobody's denying this, but the burial didn't occur in a single event.
There is no intelligent reason to assume that there were not suitable conditions for different kind of species to survive. I think it is reasonable to assume there were areas with different conditions so that enough species could surviv
Where were these areas of different conditions, on a world covered with water?
It ruins your credibility, when you make blatantly false claims. I don’t claim “all the evidence and analysis by experts in their fields is wrong”.
You claim science is speculation and scientific knowledge is wrong. You believe what is unfounded, and disbelieve what is well founded.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
If the flood happened as Bible indicates, it was massive event that would have caused many different layers in sediment strata.
If that was so, then we should be able to reproduce that in an experiment, don't we?

Wait, they've done that and, no, there is no chance in hell that you can produce multiple layers of alternating density in a single flooding event.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
If the flood happened as Bible indicates, it was massive event that would have caused many different layers in sediment strata.
But the layers [stratigraphy] simply don't fit that paradigm.
 
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