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Science is based on philosophy

sooda

Veteran Member
Science is based on philosophy, therefore, philosophy is essential in determining truth and knowledge. People often claim that all that is needed is science.

The scientific method of science is a philosophical construct, using epistemology to determine the nature of truth and knowledge, and how to prove things.

Other aspects of reality (or of claimed reality) fall under the category of religion and spirituality; but these should be evaluated via philosophy. Usually, these are considered as revealed knowledge from God. But revealed religions and revealed spiritual paths are untrustworthy sources of truth and knowledge: they require philosophical evidence to back them up. (And also, they should not contradict science.)

Philosophy - Wikipedia
Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaPhilosophy

  • Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental questions about existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. Such questions are often posed as problems to be studied or resolved.

  • The term was probably coined by Pythagoras. Philosophical methods include questioning, critical discussion, rational argument, and systematic presentation. Classic philosophical questions include: Is it possible to know anything and to prove it? What is most real? Philosophers also pose more practical an...
 

sooda

Veteran Member
  1. Philosophy - definition of philosophy by The Free Dictionary
    Dictionary, Encyclopedia and Thesaurus - The Free Dictionaryphilosophy
    1. (Philosophy) the academic discipline concerned with making explicit the nature and significance of ordinary and scientific beliefs and investigating the intelligibility of concepts by means of rational argument concerning their presuppositions, implications, and interrelationships; in particular, the rational investigation of the nature and structure of reality (metaphysics), the resources ...

  2. Philosophy | Definition of Philosophy at Dictionary.com
    Dictionary.com - The world’s favorite online dictionary!philosophy
    Philosophy
    definition, the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct. See more.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Philosophy is like being in a dark room and looking for a black cat.

Metaphysics is like being in a dark room and looking for a black cat that isn't there.

Theology is like being in a dark room and looking for a black cat that isn't there, and shouting "I found it!"

Science is like being in a dark room looking for a black cat while using a flashlight.

Unfortunately the room might be a construct immensely larger than we believe and the cat may or may not be there.

The tools of science are the only ones we have but to understand we must understand ourselves and the products of these tools. Why are we even looking for a cat?

If we really want the cat all we need to do is open a can of tuna.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Unfortunately the room might be a construct immensely larger than we believe and the cat may or may not be there.
Or both.
The tools of science are the only ones we have but to understand we must understand ourselves and the products of these tools.
Science is just a way of experiencing our physical existence. It's not the only way, and it's not even the 'best' way. Because existence encompasses far more than just physicality, which is all science can help us experience. That's why we engage in philosophy, and art, and religion. These offer us other ways of experiencing and understanding our existence beyond physicality.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
And just as often, they can. Intuition is is often reason acting so quickly and subconsciously that the mechinations go unnoticed.
All knowledge begins when we notice an effect and wonder what caused it. Since we can't see, hear, smell or taste the difference between moral right and wrong, we must feel it. Those feelings are the effects we notice and learn from

In other words, if it wasn't for the intuitive feelings that we refer to as conscience, our reasoning minds would know absolutely nothing about morality.

Then, because we take great pride in our ability to reason, we think that we can improve upon the work of our master teacher (conscience) so we create moral rules and laws that serve only to make the topic of morality a confused mess.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
It's not the only way, and it's not even the 'best' way. Because existence encompasses far more than just physicality, which is all science can help us experience.

"Science" provides only a spectra of reality. We fill in with our beliefs and extrapolate both ends beyond nothingness.

But far more importantly is that no matter what we believe and model we can see reality only in terms of these beliefs. We quit seeing what is real and begin seeing experimental results. On the plus side experimental results are naturally tied to reality but most experience is impossible to model so science is being used in ways it can't work. It's impossible to scientifically determine whether or not we should have a cat (or not).

There is still reality. There is still a correct answer to cat ownership for every individual. What you call "physicality" still exists independently of reason, emotion, and belief. We each make our choices based on the vector sum total of our beliefs and it matters not one whit whether these beliefs are based on science or religion.

When we sleep we can sometimes get a little assist from our ancient brains but this doesn't always work. Our speech center sleeps even when higher brain functions might not.

"Science" will one day be able to understand far more than we do today and then it will be able to explore things we can't even dream of now. But it will never get so powerful as most believe it already is.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
All knowledge begins when we notice an effect and wonder what caused it. Since we can't see, hear, smell or taste the difference between moral right and wrong, we must feel it. Those feelings are the effects we notice and learn from

In other words, if it wasn't for the intuitive feelings that we refer to as conscience, our reasoning minds would know absolutely nothing about morality.
But you're presuming that the reasoning mind and the intuitive mind are not the same mind. I believe they are the same mind; before reflection, and upon reflection. The mind is at work in either case, and is therefor reasoning. We just aren't consciously aware of it until we reflect upon it.
Then, because we take great pride in our ability to reason, we think that we can improve upon the work of our master teacher (conscience) so we create moral rules and laws that serve only to make the topic of morality a confused mess.
Upon reflection, we may choose to cede to our intuitive reasoning, or we may choose to reject it. To make this choice, we need to identify and verify our own ethical imperatives. I would call this step our 'conscience'. Not the intuitively reasoned impulse.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
"Science" provides only a spectra of reality. We fill in with our beliefs and extrapolate both ends beyond nothingness.

But far more importantly is that no matter what we believe and model we can see reality only in terms of these beliefs. We quit seeing what is real and begin seeing experimental results. On the plus side experimental results are naturally tied to reality but most experience is impossible to model so science is being used in ways it can't work. It's impossible to scientifically determine whether or not we should have a cat (or not).

There is still reality. There is still a correct answer to cat ownership for every individual. What you call "physicality" still exists independently of reason, emotion, and belief. We each make our choices based on the vector sum total of our beliefs and it matters not one whit whether these beliefs are based on science or religion.

When we sleep we can sometimes get a little assist from our ancient brains but this doesn't always work. Our speech center sleeps even when higher brain functions might not.

"Science" will one day be able to understand far more than we do today and then it will be able to explore things we can't even dream of now. But it will never get so powerful as most believe it already is.
I agree. The term for this new 'religious' belief in science as the only pathway to knowledge and truth is called "scientism". And because our schools avoid religion and philosophy and art as part of a basic education curriculum, this "scientism" is running rampant and unchecked among a lot of our young people.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
People like Newton, Bacon, Copernicus, etc. were natural philosophers, and natural philosophy was not seen as distinct from philosophy.
Bacon made the greatest contribution. He departed from pure philosophy and introduced verification by the senses into natural philosophy. Before him philosophy emphasized not depending upon your senses and relying purely on reason. Only rarely did educated people deviate from that. You can see it permeated the culture that you didn't question things that were understood through philosophy. Today the situation has changed. People demand verification for all kinds of things.
Francis Bacon and the scientific revolution

The belief that science has no need for philosophy is basically scientism.
Yes. Science is a discipline first, philosophy second. Without discipline its nothing, and without philosophy its not Science.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree. The term for this new 'religious' belief in science as the only pathway to knowledge and truth is called "scientism". And because our schools avoid religion and philosophy and art as part of a basic education curriculum, this "scientism" is running rampant and unchecked among a lot of our young people.
Its part of the post modernist movement which takes the concept that meaning is relative and contextual and drives the football the wrong direction and way out of the park.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Its part of the post modernist movement which takes the concept that meaning is relative and contextual and drives the football the wrong direction and way out of the park.
What do you see as being the "wrong direction"? I agree that relativism is the fuel powering 'post-modern' thought, but it's part of our concept of reality, now. We can't 'unknow' it.

But we can use it to genuinely progress if we don't destroy ourselves by four reaking out in fear of it.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
But you're presuming that the reasoning mind and the intuitive mind are not the same mind....
I've never heard of anyone who didn't separate the conscious mind (which includes the reasoning function) from the unconscious (which includes the intuitive function) before. Is there any support for your position in science or philosophy?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Everyone rolled their eyes when they read my paper, but since I got the job done, in record time, under budget, it was all acceptable, in light of the quirks of a young eccentric hot shot scientist. I was jokingly called the Mercury Man; quicksilver.

The point is, there is a broader based philosophy of science, that is not allowed by the current method, unless it can produce tangible results, or be covered up with alternate logic that is less metaphysical. I pushed the boundary of the philosophy to be 100% honest. Someday science will expand to include this, so we can calibrate the most important tool in science; mind. Without this gray area of science developed, mind calibration is not possible. In the mean time, mutually exclusive theory, which is not rational, is accepted and even published. Alchemy exists in modern theoretical science, but only if properly disguised with math.
What a great informative story :) More approaches to the Philosophy of Science here.

Personally I find most of the ancient philosophers very interesting - also when it comes to the question of modern cosmological science. And this even goes for ancient mythological-cosmological informations.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I don't see that as logical at all. Intuitive judgments often can't be explained reasonably. Moreover, they are immediate feeling that emerge from the unconscious unlike the slower process of reasoning that begins in the conscious part of the brain.
Beware: "Intuition" can not and shall not be compared with "instinctive feelings" :)
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Science is based on philosophy, therefore, philosophy is essential in determining truth and knowledge. People often claim that all that is needed is science.

The scientific method of science is a philosophical construct, using epistemology to determine the nature of truth and knowledge, and how to prove things.

Other aspects of reality (or of claimed reality) fall under the category of religion and spirituality; but these should be evaluated via philosophy. Usually, these are considered as revealed knowledge from God. But revealed religions and revealed spiritual paths are untrustworthy sources of truth and knowledge: they require philosophical evidence to back them up. (And also, they should not contradict science.)

"Science is based on philosophy"

Some in science and religion have that fantasy. But thats obvious virtualized nonsense. Sorry the sun rises and the sun sets independent of philosophy human ideas and your child like understanding of nature as a car is rather cute and normal..

Gladys_(My_Mother_the_Car).jpg
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How big is the room?

I would say many undertstand the room as if they are outside the room that exists in theology and science and thus only details are disagreed upon.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
"Science is based on philosophy"

Some in science and religion have that fantasy. But thats obvious virtualized nonsense. Sorry the sun rises and the sun sets independent of philosophy human ideas and your child like understanding of nature as a car is rather cute and normal..

View attachment 29830

Sorry the sun rises and the sun sets independent of philosophy ...

LOLOL.. Indeed it does. Enough navel gazing.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Beware: "Intuition" can not and shall not be compared with "instinctive feelings" :)
The other poster and I were on the topic of morality. Social scientists have labeled those judgments as "intuition." But I'll confess that I don't see the difference between intuition and instinct since both words describe immediate feelings emerging from the unconscious.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Philosophy of science limits scientific investigation to things that are collectively verifiable via our sensory systems using technology and tools that expand their range.

As an example, if we all went into the woods at night, and one person heard a unique sound, but nobody else hears its, that sound would not be part of the verifiable data, since nobody else could hear it. The method of science has peer review as well as independent verification of experiments to make sure the data is tangible and objective to all. Anything beyond this is not allowed.

That being said, there is a range of real and tangible data, connected to consciousness, that is not consistent with this philosophy. For example, say I had a dream and related the dream in all its tiny details. Even if my recollection was spot on and I had the reputation of always telling the truth, this dream is not verifiable by anyone else. Nobody else can read my mind and then verify my claims using their sensory systems. We do not have the tools, so I could externally record my dream details, nor could I reproduce this particular dream on demand, even if we had the tools. Dreams are often one of a kind.

The dream is an example of real objective data, to any first person observer. We have all experienced, dreams to know they are real output data from the brain. However, since any dream is not verifiable in a collective sense, it is called subjective to the collective mind. Dreams exist at the threshold of where the philosophy of science starts to break down in terms of the group, but not necessarily in terms of the individual. You can record and analyze your dreams in a solid scientific way, but this will never be verifiable in terms of the group.

If a person had a spiritual experience, this may also be a unique event, with respect to its details. It may be a one shot thing, that may never occur again, in the exact same way. This will often be verifiable in terms of the philosophy of the science of one, but not the philosophy of all. This does not mean it was not real data, but only means it is outside the boundaries of peer review and collective verification science. The human psyche is the last frontier for science, but its collective investigation would require altering the philosophy. Nw it called soft science due to being at the boundary.

Before the age of enlightenment; age of reason, the philosophy of science was more expansive and took into account projection from the human psyche. Science was originally more mystical.The alchemists, who would develop many of the tools and procedures of modern chemistry, made use of the unconscious projection factor; mysticism. They were able to develop tools and methods, using unconscious development factors that are not easy to verify; science from not science, based on the modern philosophy of science.

When I was a young development engineer, I was given an emergency project that required I develop the best available technology for removing mercury from water. I had to meet EPA standards ten years in the future. To meets the need of the emergency situation, I needed it done, yesterday.

There was nothing in the science literature to borrow, since I had to exceed the state of the art by an order of magnitude. At that time, I was also doing independent hobby research on the human psyche and I had become an expert in collective human symbolism. I decided to try an alchemist mystical logic approach, instead of try random tweak experiments, using the then best existing science and technology.

The alchemists were very much acquainted with mercury and had logic of like attracts like. To make a long story short, using their approach, modified to the future, it took me three weeks to demonstrate the new best available technology. I even wrote my alchemy logic approach, in a paper that I asked to publish a few months later, due to the successful scale up and demonstration that treated millions of gallons of water to below 1 part per trillion.

Everyone rolled their eyes when they read my paper, but since I got the job done, in record time, under budget, it was all acceptable, in light of the quirks of a young eccentric hot shot scientist. I was jokingly called the Mercury Man; quicksilver.

The point is, there is a broader based philosophy of science, that is not allowed by the current method, unless it can produce tangible results, or be covered up with alternate logic that is less metaphysical. I pushed the boundary of the philosophy to be 100% honest. Someday science will expand to include this, so we can calibrate the most important tool in science; mind. Without this gray area of science developed, mind calibration is not possible. In the mean time, mutually exclusive theory, which is not rational, is accepted and even published. Alchemy exists in modern theoretical science, but only if properly disguised with math.
Thats a very well written and thought out piece. Thanks.

Art and science do ultimately merge at the unconscious. So the title of this thread is nonsense. Its like saying the here and now intellectually is determing the start of the universe. Its not. A rather grandious claim that finds itself in conflict (science religion debate), arguing over details is all. Science has its orthodoxy religion has its orthodoxy and to challenge either places you outside normal.

Therefore you are a wierdo!!!!! Lol my best compliment.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The other poster and I were on the topic of morality. Social scientists have labeled those judgments as "intuition." But I'll confess that I don't see the difference between intuition and instinct since both words describe immediate feelings emerging from the unconscious.
Social science is an institution labeling institutions.

You can buy one for about $10 bucks actually.
images (34).jpeg
 
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