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Featured Science Babble vs Truth

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by nPeace, Oct 5, 2021.

  1. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Obviously you are allowed to believe what you want, but you ought to still have a good reason for why you think an intelligent creator is needed for this to happen. If you simply believe it because you can't explain or understand it, then you are basically doing an argument from ignorance or God of gaps, which is not meant personally, because a lot of people throughout the time have fallen for that, including Newton which is probably the greatest scientist to have ever lived, but as we know they have all been shown to be wrong.

    So if by far the majority of scientists say that the lifeforms we know today is best explained by the theory of evolution and that this doesn't require or they see no evidence of there being an intelligent designer behind it. Then why would you see a need for a God when they don't?

    The issue a lot of these scientists ran into such as Newton, were that they eventually couldn't explain something and it was first at that moment they invoked God, up until that point he weren't relevant. But as you know Einstein came along later and showed Newton where he had gone wrong and again there were no need for a God.
     
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  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Why you are telling me about people who did not and still do not teach or follow what the Bible says, I have no idea. Why are you telling me about people who were murdering other people while holding the Bible or walking around in religious robes? I was discussing the Bible, and its truth. Not men that speak lies. What do they have to do with truth?

    There you go again. I'm sorry, but the Genesis account is in harmony with science. It doesn't fit with science babble. That is true.
    Truth in poems and songs is still truth. :shrug:

    Pardon me? What are you referring to?
    I demonstrated that people who lived by Bible standards benefit immensely.
    People have discovered the value in many of the principles outlined in the Bible... some of which are only recently accepted.... Some of these many realize the need to return to, after they decried, some of those principles..

    Keep in mind that many scientists, as you say, grew up in a home where the Bible was a very important "tool", or they were raised by someone who valued and quoted words from the Bible.

    Were you always an Atheist? More than likely, you have some of those roots, which Atheists are painstakingly trying to remove.
    Nevertheless, what we have been taught is lodged in our conscious, and yes, it does... it has trained our conscience... to a degree.
    That's why there are some "decent" Atheists. :)

    That's funny Nimos. Very funny.
    A man convinced against his own mind, or will is of the same opinion, or mind, still.
    The person that only sees a "naturalistic" answer for everything, will never see anything besides that narrow view.
    Just imagine the person who plants his feet between two long buildings or walls, and is determined to not see beyond that view.
    between.png
    It's as accurate as stated in Psalm 10:4. In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; All his thoughts are: “There is no God.”

    I would be surprised if you denied this Nimos.
    Take for example, this .. Is evolution more intelligent than we thought?

    Please pay particular attention to the words used.
    Professor Richard Watson says new research shows that evolution is able to learn from previous experience, which could provide a better explanation of how evolution by natural selection produces such apparently intelligent designs.
    "When we look at the amazing, apparently intelligent designs that evolution produces, it takes some imagination to understand how random variation and selection produced them. Sure, given suitable variation and suitable selection (and we also need suitable inheritance) then we're fine. But can natural selection explain the suitability of its own processes? That self-referential notion is troubling to conventional evolutionary theory - but easy in learning theory.

    "If evolution can learn from experience, and thus improve its own ability to evolve over time, this can demystify the awesomeness of the designs that evolution produces. Natural selection can accumulate knowledge that enables it to evolve smarter. That's exciting because it explains why biological design appears to be so intelligent."

    I don't think I misunderstood his words, but please feel free to tell me if you think I did.
    What is apparent to us through the senses, will... actually should lead to one conclusion. The evidence points to design. which follows that there is an intelligent designer.
    However, the naturalist sees the same design, but the only answer. must be a "natural" one. Hence, natural selection is that designer, and of course, "we can find a perfect reason for why this is the case". :grinning:


    The evidence - circumstantial as is is - is interpreted in more ways than one.
    Each person makes their choice. Each will accuse the other of imagination.
    That's my point really Nimos. That is the purpose of this thread... to show that it's a matter - not of one side having evidence and the other not having any.
    The Bible says, the evidence is clearly seen... that there is a creator.
    (Romans 1:20) For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.

    Scientists say, the evidence is clearly seen for natural processes being responsible for the universe and everything in it.
    Atheists say, the evidence is clearly seen that there is no God. :D

    I believe there will come a time will everyone living will agree on the same conclusion, but untill that time, there will always be this disagreement. There will be people who do not agree that natural processes were responsible for the universe, and everything in it. There will be people who do not agree that there is any creator... etc.
    All one can do is present the evidence. The other will determine if they are convinced.
    I really don't mind posting evidence, but I don't believe in doing so for the sake of... giving my fingers exercise :shrug: ?
    We have spoken at length on the thread "Evidence for God"... I believe, and I am sure we spoke at length on the thread "Why Trust the Bible".
    I don't do reruns though, sorry. :) If it were your first time, I would oblige. Perhaps too, if I had time on my hands i might give it a second thought. As you can see, my time here recently has been scarce. I'm really busy. Who knows what the future may bring though, in this regard.

    No. I am not fooled by those who say they "might learn" either, and they are still here on a debate forum, instead of on jw.org. ;)
    I believe the naturalist will also have a "natural" explanation for why the cockpit of the airplane has all these dial that needs to be precisely set for the flight to take its course and not end up, God knows where.
    We are on a flight that seems to be "pre-programming" to take us safely through some dangerous airspace, yet some kind of "natural selection" must surely have been at work there too.
    Sadly, they blame the mechanical failure on the pilot, and say that proves the dials precisely aligned on their own. :(

    This might help. You probably will agree with one or more of the physicists.
     
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  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I think we can shake hands on two of your statements -
    You and me have to judge which of them is more likely to be correct.
    But when all that is said, you and me as of the example above, still have to make up our mind about which of these claims are more likely to be correct.


    So rather than we go around in circles, with me repeating what I have said, and you not getting it :D - namely that you think you have this or that, or that "science" knows this or that, let's end on this good note. Each person will determine what is the most reasonable, sensible, logical, and clearly accurate or reliable... or what is truth... based on the evidence.

    Nice having this discussion with you.
    You can feel free to respond. I will pop on the forums at times, but it won't be as regular, and I just want you to know so that you be aware I might not give an immediate response.
    Later. :)
     
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  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I hear this idea mentioned by Atheists, but never have they been able to demonstrate that there is any truth to their god-of-the-gaps argument.
    Do you have an actual reference to the claim that Newton invoked God because he could not find an explanation?
     
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  5. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Quit this effort to obfuscate.
    You can’t stand that the Bible is accurate in it’s revelation of there being “springs of the deep.”

    I can’t help your discomfort.

    Goodbye & take care, my cousin.
     
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  6. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    To these people this were the truth, its no different from when I asked you earlier who decides whether YEC are right or not, you clearly think they are wrong yet they would disagree with you and say that your interpretation of the bible is wrong.

    That is a huge issue with religions in general that it depends on how you interpret the scriptures. You simply claiming that their views are wrong doesn't make it so, since you haven't been able to demonstrate your own views as being the correct interpretation.

    Yes have always been an atheist.

    My point being that the bible is not unique in its views, lots of other cultures at the time followed similar rules, that you should not murder etc. So following common sense or any of the other cultures is equally as useful as following the bible in regards to this.

    There is a huge difference between saying something appears intelligently designed and it being so. It would be amazing if the polar bears lived where they do without any way to protect against the cold. Saying that they got fur due to something intelligent doesn't seem very likely, compared to them having gotten thick fur doing to evolution.

    Saying that it is intelligently designed, is to look at it from a top to bottom approach, but evolution is bottom to top. Meaning that those polar bears that didn't evolved or got thick enough fur would have died from the cold and the rest would have made it so they could pass on their genes. Think about the million of species that have gone extinct, what does that tell you about them being intelligently designed?

    Of course they do, the natural explanation is that we humans designed them and that all these buttons and switches have been added because we wanted them there to make airplanes better. So there is a perfectly natural explanation for it.

    But we are not, and there are clear evidence for this not being the case. We know of 5 mass extinctions on the planet already and according to many scientists we might very well be heading for a 6 one at the moment.

    A decent sized meteor from space could hit us and its lights out for humanity.

    Yes, but my point being that adding together some ages from a book which is unverified as being accurate or even true, is not evidence worth anything.

    In that case you would have to read Isaac Newton’s Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, which I don't expect you will, haven't read it my self either.

    The six primary Planets are revolv’d about the Sun, in circles concentric with the Sun, and with motions directed towards the same parts, and almost in the same plane. […] But it is not to be conceived that mere mechanical causes could give birth to so many regular motions. […] This most beautiful System of the Sun, Planets, and Comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.

    But as mentioned earlier, we know that Einstein explained it.
     
    #466 Nimos, Oct 26, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  7. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    It's rather obvious that human beings have been placing gods in the gaps of our understanding for about as long as we've been on this planet.
    What did human beings attribute lightning to, before they knew where lightning came from? Gods.
    What did human beings attribute a bad harvest to, before they knew much about weather systems? Gods.
    What did humans turn to before the understood the reproductive cycle? Gods.

    We can see people doing this even today. I've seen several posters on this forum insert Gods into gaps when it comes to our understanding of evolution, or the origins or "fine tuning" of the universe or into miracle claims they can't explain, etc. Humans have created Gods to explain just about everything at some point in human history. Hence the reason there are so many Gods in the dustbin of our history.

    Newton attempted to insert God into his (lack of) understanding of the workings of the solar system and planetary motion, suggesting that God had to periodically intervene to keep it all in working order.
    No. 3012: Newton, God, and Gravity
    What The 'God Of The Gaps' Teaches Us About Science
     
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  8. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    That’s funny, when you considered that every things written and collected in the “bible” were written by men.

    Those men who you say they would “lie”, are the same men who wrote those books.

    You think the books were written by themselves?

    And if the books were written by men, wouldn’t that mean those who wrote the NT are liars, therefore gospels and epistles are lies? The entire Bible is a whole lot of lies?
     
  9. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    You say I ought to have a good reason as to why an intelligent creator is needed for ??? what to happen??? Life? The first thing in a universe that expanded? What??? lolol...okl, anyway...alright, I don't want to get too involved in every aspect or detail or what I think is creation, but! -- there are some questions that I am virtually guaranteeing you will have no answers other than -- somebody (with a capital S) had to make this possible. By this possible I mean forever. I don't mean in the next 1000 years, if humanity in its present state as if God does not exist, survives. (It won't though unless God makes it possible.) anyway -- some answers just have to be for some --
    whatever...
    :)
    Have a good night.
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Yes, change the word "God" to fairies and you will see why you need evidence.

    "Fairies created the universe because you do not have another explanation". Does that sound very convincing to you? I hope not.
     
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  11. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    OK, here we go. :)
    Einstein couldn't say whether there is or is not a God. (He wouldn't dare because he evidently had no faith in any god in particular, raised as a Jew but did not believe...but I have my opinion about that and maybe one day I will meet him and we can share a meal and have a nice conversation about that.)
    I won't go on right now about Einstein, a man of interest to many.
     
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  12. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Mass extinctions, you say? OK -- is it that all life was exterminated, or just a portion of it? This next mass extinction you say many scientists are forecasting -- would that be because of human intervention in the state of life that is perhaps beneficial for life on earth, such as waste, toxic fumes, overuse of timber, etc.?
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Just a large portion of it. If all life went extinct we would not be here.
     
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  14. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    No one can, because so far no one have been able to provide any evidence for one.
     
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  15. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    If I can explain how pencils are made, or how graphite is formed, why does that mean there is no need for a God? On the other hand, life itself tells a person there is a God. But it is possible, with all the confusion and horror stories around that many would come to the conclusion that there is no God. For my own experience, and I'm sure it's not everybody's, I have come to realize that there IS a God who is Supreme and who cares for people. But that's me and as logical as it seems to me, I realize it's not for everybody.
     
  16. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    More than 99 percent of all organisms that have ever lived on Earth are extinct. As new species evolve to fit ever changing ecological niches, older species fade away. But the rate of extinction is far from constant. At least a handful of times in the last 500 million years, 75 to more than 90 percent of all species on Earth have disappeared in a geological blink of an eye in catastrophes we call mass extinctions.

    The current talk about an extinction is because of how things are going on Earth mostly due to human impact on the environment.

    It's impossible to deny — humans are destroying the natural environment at an unprecedented and alarming rate. According to a new report out Tuesday, animal populations have declined by such a staggering amount, that only an overhaul of the world's economic systems could possibly reverse the damage.

    Nearly 21,000 monitored populations of mammals, fish, birds, reptiles and amphibians, encompassing almost 4,400 species around the world, have declined an average of 68% between 1970 and 2016, according to the World Wildlife Fund's Living Planet Report 2020. Species in Latin America and the Caribbean, as well as global freshwater habitats, were disproportionately impacted, declining, on average, 94% and 84%, respectively.


     
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  17. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You still do not understand the concept of evidence. And in this case you are wrong. Life itself does not support you.
     
  19. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Why is it that people think they can find evidence for God in the bible? Its the very book that makes the claim, obviously it is going to support it.
     
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  20. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    OK, that's what I thought you meant, that mankind, the latest organism in the evolutionary process, has used his power to virtually ruin the earth. This time, I suppose. The Bible logically says that God will not allow that to happen. It says, in contrast, that God will ruin those who are ruining the earth. Revelation 11:18 - (it says that God will ruin those ruining the earth.)
    So I knoiw you don't believe in the Bible, but I have come to believe it, since -- i.t ... m.a.k.e.s....s.e.n.s.e -- to me. :)
     
    #480 YoursTrue, Oct 26, 2021
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