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Science and religion: history

Link: Science, Religion and Modernity

This is a fascinating series of lectures delivered as part of the prestigious Gifford Lectures series Edinburgh University by the academic historian of science Peter Harrison (formerly of Oxford University and now of the University of Queensland: just to clarify it is not 'religious apologetics').

It focuses on the relationship between religion and science in the Western tradition and is a comprehensive refutation of the 'conflict thesis' that exists in popular discourse (although long since discredited among historians).

It's not really presented as a refutation as such, more a comprehensive history of the development of both the concepts of religion and science throughout history.

More than simply making the point that the narrative of conflict between the disciplines is wrong, it really makes the point that it is nonsensical as neither religion or science in the modern usages of the term really existed prior to the 18th C.

Starting from the ancient Greeks, it argues that natural philosophy, which is often seen as proto-science bears little resemblance to modern conceptions of science. As the name suggests, natural philosophy was a branch of philosophy and had different aims to modern science rather than simply being the same thing under a different name.

For the Greeks philosophy was a method of cultivating virtue and the good life and science was a means to an end in this regard. 'Science' was thus an internal virtue rather than a reified discipline.

Moreover, the idea that science was a 'handmaiden of theology' was not a Christian formulation, but was Aristotelean in origin. Theology was thus intrinsic to Greek science.

With the rise of Christianity, the theological component of Greek knowledge was ignored due to being superseded by Christian theology, but natural philosophy always remained a discipline in which God played a significant role.

Due to certain theological beliefs such as the Fall of Man, Christian scientists like Boyle, Newton and Bacon rejected the Greek belief that reason alone was sufficient in order to practice natural philosophy. This gave rise to the experimental approach prevalent in modern science. At first this approach was widely mocked as being useless, and mainly gained social legitimacy (and thus funding and longevity) due to its perceived benefit to theology.

In the early modern period, science and religion transformed from being internal virtues to become externalised, reified concepts that developed into the modern terms as we would recognise today. This resulted in the modern idea that science, and society in general, progress on a gradually upward arc, and the contrasting belief that religion was regressive and held back progress. Prior to this, presenting such a view would have made little conceptual sense.

While I appreciate most people will have no intention of listening to 6 hours worth of lectures, the odd person might. I would especially recommend it to anyone who believes in the Conflict Thesis as it explains very clearly the massive flaws in such beliefs with recourse to numerous primary texts and analysis of historical data.

If you only watch/listen to one of them then I'd recommend 5 science and progress.



LECTURE ABSTRACTS:

1. The Territories of Science and Religion

So familiar are the concepts ‘science’ and ‘religion’, and so central to Western culture have been the activities and achievements that are usually labelled ‘religious’ and ‘scientific’, that it is natural to assume that they have been enduring features of the cultural landscape of the West. However, this view is misleading.

Only in the past few hundred years have religious beliefs and activities been bounded by a common notion ‘religion’ and set apart from the ‘non-religious’ or secular domains of human existence. The idea of natural sciences as discrete activities conducted in isolation from religious and moral concerns is even more recent, dating from the nineteenth century. Both categories, ‘religion’ and ‘science’, distort what they claim to represent.

2. The Cosmos and the Religious Quest

In antiquity and for much of the Middle Ages the formal study of nature—natural philosophy—was, as the name implies, part of the discipline of philosophy.

Philosophy itself, from its inception in ancient Greece, had been understood as a form of spiritual exercises. As a consequence, a primary goal of what we call science was, in this earlier period, moral and spiritual formation. These conceptions were to influence the identity of Western Christianity, which came to understand itself as ‘the true philosophy’. The study of nature in the Middle Ages was thus an important element of the religious life.

3. The Disenchantment of the World

In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries the contemplative approach to nature, along with the emphasis on religious and intellectual formation, was replaced by a more utilitarian project, and nature itself was stripped of much of its symbolic religious significance.

This process of disenchantment was partly driven by religious factors. At the same time, related developments saw the transformation of both philosophy and religion. The former became less concerned with the pursuit of the philosophical life, while a new conception of religion emphasised explicit belief and observable religious practice, and distinguished various ‘religions’ according to these criteria.

4. Fallen Knowledge

One factor in the disenchantment of nature was the doctrine of the Fall, which had risen to prominence in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

On this view, because the world had fallen from its original integrity it could not be an impeccable source of theological or moral truths. The human mind, in its fallen condition, was also now thought to lack the capacity to discern the true natures of things. These ideas promoted the emergence of experimental science, which is premised on the assumption that knowledge of nature is difficult to acquire.

The new emphasis on the obscurity of nature, the fallibility of knowledge, and the moral corruption of human agents also challenged a medieval synthesis which held that Christianity and classical philosophy had a common goal. The efforts of students of nature will henceforth be directed away from a self-mastery to a literal and progressive mastery of the physical world.

5. Science and Progress

The Fall-Redemption narrative not only informed the goals and methods of the new sciences, but also placed the scientific revolution within the larger context of Christian history.

The great efflorescence of scientific activity that characterised the seventeenth century was regarded variously as a prelude to the millennium, as one facet of a general reformation of religion and learning, or as a means of helping to restore to the human race a mastery of nature that had been lost as a consequence of the Fall.

The idea of scientific progress thus initially derived its legitimacy from a providential understanding of history. The seventeenth and eighteenth centuries saw the emergence of a number of ‘scientific eschatologies’, which, in their secularised forms in the nineteenth century, were ironically to consign religion to a primitive stage of historical development. On this view of history, religion was destined to be displaced by science.

6. Religion and the Future of Science

The last few decades have witnessed a growing public disillusionment with a scientific enterprise that for much of the twentieth century had enjoyed unparalleled prestige.

The narrative of progress without limit now also looks a little threadbare. This final lecture considers whether the new ‘flight from science’ represents a regrettable defection from reason and ‘Enlightenment values’, or whether it presents an opportunity to reconnect the study of nature with the kinds of moral and religious values that once played a prominent role in its genesis and development.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Link: Science, Religion and Modernity

This is a fascinating series of lectures delivered as part of the prestigious Gifford Lectures series Edinburgh University by the academic historian of science Peter Harrison (formerly of Oxford University and now of the University of Queensland: just to clarify it is not 'religious apologetics').

It focuses on the relationship between religion and science in the Western tradition and is a comprehensive refutation of the 'conflict thesis' that exists in popular discourse (although long since discredited among historians).

It's not really presented as a refutation as such, more a comprehensive history of the development of both the concepts of religion and science throughout history.

More than simply making the point that the narrative of conflict between the disciplines is wrong, it really makes the point that it is nonsensical as neither religion or science in the modern usages of the term really existed prior to the 18th C.

Starting from the ancient Greeks, it argues that natural philosophy, which is often seen as proto-science bears little resemblance to modern conceptions of science. As the name suggests, natural philosophy was a branch of philosophy and had different aims to modern science rather than simply being the same thing under a different name.

For the Greeks philosophy was a method of cultivating virtue and the good life and science was a means to an end in this regard. 'Science' was thus an internal virtue rather than a reified discipline.

Moreover, the idea that science was a 'handmaiden of theology' was not a Christian formulation, but was Aristotelean in origin. Theology was thus intrinsic to Greek science.

With the rise of Christianity, the theological component of Greek knowledge was ignored due to being superseded by Christian theology, but natural philosophy always remained a discipline in which God played a significant role.

Due to certain theological beliefs such as the Fall of Man, Christian scientists like Boyle, Newton and Bacon rejected the Greek belief that reason alone was sufficient in order to practice natural philosophy. This gave rise to the experimental approach prevalent in modern science. At first this approach was widely mocked as being useless, and mainly gained social legitimacy (and thus funding and longevity) due to its perceived benefit to theology.

In the early modern period, science and religion transformed from being internal virtues to become externalised, reified concepts that developed into the modern terms as we would recognise today. This resulted in the modern idea that science, and society in general, progress on a gradually upward arc, and the contrasting belief that religion was regressive and held back progress. Prior to this, presenting such a view would have made little conceptual sense.

While I appreciate most people will have no intention of listening to 6 hours worth of lectures, the odd person might. I would especially recommend it to anyone who believes in the Conflict Thesis as it explains very clearly the massive flaws in such beliefs with recourse to numerous primary texts and analysis of historical data.

If you only watch/listen to one of them then I'd recommend 5 science and progress.



LECTURE ABSTRACTS:

1. The Territories of Science and Religion

So familiar are the concepts ‘science’ and ‘religion’, and so central to Western culture have been the activities and achievements that are usually labelled ‘religious’ and ‘scientific’, that it is natural to assume that they have been enduring features of the cultural landscape of the West. However, this view is misleading.

Only in the past few hundred years have religious beliefs and activities been bounded by a common notion ‘religion’ and set apart from the ‘non-religious’ or secular domains of human existence. The idea of natural sciences as discrete activities conducted in isolation from religious and moral concerns is even more recent, dating from the nineteenth century. Both categories, ‘religion’ and ‘science’, distort what they claim to represent.

2. The Cosmos and the Religious Quest

In antiquity and for much of the Middle Ages the formal study of nature—natural philosophy—was, as the name implies, part of the discipline of philosophy.

Philosophy itself, from its inception in ancient Greece, had been understood as a form of spiritual exercises. As a consequence, a primary goal of what we call science was, in this earlier period, moral and spiritual formation. These conceptions were to influence the identity of Western Christianity, which came to understand itself as ‘the true philosophy’. The study of nature in the Middle Ages was thus an important element of the religious life.

3. The Disenchantment of the World

In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries the contemplative approach to nature, along with the emphasis on religious and intellectual formation, was replaced by a more utilitarian project, and nature itself was stripped of much of its symbolic religious significance.

This process of disenchantment was partly driven by religious factors. At the same time, related developments saw the transformation of both philosophy and religion. The former became less concerned with the pursuit of the philosophical life, while a new conception of religion emphasised explicit belief and observable religious practice, and distinguished various ‘religions’ according to these criteria.

4. Fallen Knowledge

One factor in the disenchantment of nature was the doctrine of the Fall, which had risen to prominence in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

On this view, because the world had fallen from its original integrity it could not be an impeccable source of theological or moral truths. The human mind, in its fallen condition, was also now thought to lack the capacity to discern the true natures of things. These ideas promoted the emergence of experimental science, which is premised on the assumption that knowledge of nature is difficult to acquire.

The new emphasis on the obscurity of nature, the fallibility of knowledge, and the moral corruption of human agents also challenged a medieval synthesis which held that Christianity and classical philosophy had a common goal. The efforts of students of nature will henceforth be directed away from a self-mastery to a literal and progressive mastery of the physical world.

5. Science and Progress

The Fall-Redemption narrative not only informed the goals and methods of the new sciences, but also placed the scientific revolution within the larger context of Christian history.

The great efflorescence of scientific activity that characterised the seventeenth century was regarded variously as a prelude to the millennium, as one facet of a general reformation of religion and learning, or as a means of helping to restore to the human race a mastery of nature that had been lost as a consequence of the Fall.

The idea of scientific progress thus initially derived its legitimacy from a providential understanding of history. The seventeenth and eighteenth centuries saw the emergence of a number of ‘scientific eschatologies’, which, in their secularised forms in the nineteenth century, were ironically to consign religion to a primitive stage of historical development. On this view of history, religion was destined to be displaced by science.

6. Religion and the Future of Science

The last few decades have witnessed a growing public disillusionment with a scientific enterprise that for much of the twentieth century had enjoyed unparalleled prestige.

The narrative of progress without limit now also looks a little threadbare. This final lecture considers whether the new ‘flight from science’ represents a regrettable defection from reason and ‘Enlightenment values’, or whether it presents an opportunity to reconnect the study of nature with the kinds of moral and religious values that once played a prominent role in its genesis and development.
This deserves a sticky. It should be a standard reference, to which people can be referred when we get stuck in a "conflict thesis" loop, as can happen on these forums.

What intrigues me is the startling contention (at least according to your paraphrasing) that religion as we know it today is something that only came to be a few hundred years ago. I'd be intrigued to listen to the lecture in which this idea is expounded. Do you know which one that would be?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Due to certain theological beliefs such as the Fall of Man, Christian scientists like Boyle, Newton and Bacon rejected the Greek belief that reason alone was sufficient in order to practice natural philosophy. This gave rise to the experimental approach prevalent in modern science. At first this approach was widely mocked as being useless, and mainly gained social legitimacy (and thus funding and longevity) due to its perceived benefit to theology.
------------------
Thanks for your post :)
IMO "The Fall" is a misinterpreted and dualistic concept which is used in order to "govern the crowd" and the same goes with the "sin concept". The patriarchal religions have abandoned the mythical language and have then taken everything literary and Incorporated it all in their moral rules, mostly in order to hold the grip of the people.

The mythical term of fall is specifically connected to the Stories of Creation and just mean how the creation initially takes place in the Sky and from there it also "falls down" and have created everything in the ancient known world, even the creation of humans on the Earth.
 
This deserves a sticky. It should be a standard reference, to which people can be referred when we get stuck in a "conflict thesis" loop, as can happen on these forums.

What intrigues me is the startling contention (at least according to your paraphrasing) that religion as we know it today is something that only came to be a few hundred years ago. I'd be intrigued to listen to the lecture in which this idea is expounded. Do you know which one that would be?

The first one certainly discusses them historically, can't quite remember if it goes up to modernity. The 5th one definitely talks about their reification into the modern concepts in more detail.

He starts each lecture by recapping some of the key points from previous lectures also.
 
------------------
Thanks for your post :)
IMO "The Fall" is a misinterpreted and dualistic concept which is used in order to "govern the crowd" and the same goes with the "sin concept". The patriarchal religions have abandoned the mythical language and have then taken everything literary and Incorporated it all in their moral rules, mostly in order to hold the grip of the people.

The mythical term of fall is specifically connected to the Stories of Creation and just mean how the creation initially takes place in the Sky and from there it also "falls down" and have created everything in the ancient known world, even the creation of humans on the Earth.

As it relates to the lectures, discussions of the fall are descriptive and only utilised insofar as they reflect the stated beliefs of historical figures in the development of science and how this influenced their perspectives on natural philosophy. This relates to the abandonment of the view that reason alone was sufficient to understand the natural world, due to our flawed nature. IN addition, experimentation was seen as the only way to discover the natural laws that had been created by God, as had he so chosen, he could have formulated a completely different set of laws. Natural philosophy also gained social legitimacy as a way of 'rediscovering' knowledge that was lost to man.

There's actually also some interesting discussion of how scriptural literalism, commonly assumed to be the 'enemy of science' (as is true in the modern world) actually played a role in the progress of natural philosophy towards what we now term science.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Link: Science, Religion and Modernity

This is a fascinating series of lectures delivered as part of the prestigious Gifford Lectures series Edinburgh University by the academic historian of science Peter Harrison (formerly of Oxford University and now of the University of Queensland: just to clarify it is not 'religious apologetics').

It focuses on the relationship between religion and science in the Western tradition and is a comprehensive refutation of the 'conflict thesis' that exists in popular discourse (although long since discredited among historians).

It's not really presented as a refutation as such, more a comprehensive history of the development of both the concepts of religion and science throughout history.

More than simply making the point that the narrative of conflict between the disciplines is wrong, it really makes the point that it is nonsensical as neither religion or science in the modern usages of the term really existed prior to the 18th C.

Starting from the ancient Greeks, it argues that natural philosophy, which is often seen as proto-science bears little resemblance to modern conceptions of science. As the name suggests, natural philosophy was a branch of philosophy and had different aims to modern science rather than simply being the same thing under a different name.

For the Greeks philosophy was a method of cultivating virtue and the good life and science was a means to an end in this regard. 'Science' was thus an internal virtue rather than a reified discipline.

Moreover, the idea that science was a 'handmaiden of theology' was not a Christian formulation, but was Aristotelean in origin. Theology was thus intrinsic to Greek science.

With the rise of Christianity, the theological component of Greek knowledge was ignored due to being superseded by Christian theology, but natural philosophy always remained a discipline in which God played a significant role.

Due to certain theological beliefs such as the Fall of Man, Christian scientists like Boyle, Newton and Bacon rejected the Greek belief that reason alone was sufficient in order to practice natural philosophy. This gave rise to the experimental approach prevalent in modern science. At first this approach was widely mocked as being useless, and mainly gained social legitimacy (and thus funding and longevity) due to its perceived benefit to theology.

In the early modern period, science and religion transformed from being internal virtues to become externalised, reified concepts that developed into the modern terms as we would recognise today. This resulted in the modern idea that science, and society in general, progress on a gradually upward arc, and the contrasting belief that religion was regressive and held back progress. Prior to this, presenting such a view would have made little conceptual sense.

While I appreciate most people will have no intention of listening to 6 hours worth of lectures, the odd person might. I would especially recommend it to anyone who believes in the Conflict Thesis as it explains very clearly the massive flaws in such beliefs with recourse to numerous primary texts and analysis of historical data.

If you only watch/listen to one of them then I'd recommend 5 science and progress.



LECTURE ABSTRACTS:

1. The Territories of Science and Religion

So familiar are the concepts ‘science’ and ‘religion’, and so central to Western culture have been the activities and achievements that are usually labelled ‘religious’ and ‘scientific’, that it is natural to assume that they have been enduring features of the cultural landscape of the West. However, this view is misleading.

Only in the past few hundred years have religious beliefs and activities been bounded by a common notion ‘religion’ and set apart from the ‘non-religious’ or secular domains of human existence. The idea of natural sciences as discrete activities conducted in isolation from religious and moral concerns is even more recent, dating from the nineteenth century. Both categories, ‘religion’ and ‘science’, distort what they claim to represent.

2. The Cosmos and the Religious Quest

In antiquity and for much of the Middle Ages the formal study of nature—natural philosophy—was, as the name implies, part of the discipline of philosophy.

Philosophy itself, from its inception in ancient Greece, had been understood as a form of spiritual exercises. As a consequence, a primary goal of what we call science was, in this earlier period, moral and spiritual formation. These conceptions were to influence the identity of Western Christianity, which came to understand itself as ‘the true philosophy’. The study of nature in the Middle Ages was thus an important element of the religious life.

3. The Disenchantment of the World

In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries the contemplative approach to nature, along with the emphasis on religious and intellectual formation, was replaced by a more utilitarian project, and nature itself was stripped of much of its symbolic religious significance.

This process of disenchantment was partly driven by religious factors. At the same time, related developments saw the transformation of both philosophy and religion. The former became less concerned with the pursuit of the philosophical life, while a new conception of religion emphasised explicit belief and observable religious practice, and distinguished various ‘religions’ according to these criteria.

4. Fallen Knowledge

One factor in the disenchantment of nature was the doctrine of the Fall, which had risen to prominence in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

On this view, because the world had fallen from its original integrity it could not be an impeccable source of theological or moral truths. The human mind, in its fallen condition, was also now thought to lack the capacity to discern the true natures of things. These ideas promoted the emergence of experimental science, which is premised on the assumption that knowledge of nature is difficult to acquire.

The new emphasis on the obscurity of nature, the fallibility of knowledge, and the moral corruption of human agents also challenged a medieval synthesis which held that Christianity and classical philosophy had a common goal. The efforts of students of nature will henceforth be directed away from a self-mastery to a literal and progressive mastery of the physical world.

5. Science and Progress

The Fall-Redemption narrative not only informed the goals and methods of the new sciences, but also placed the scientific revolution within the larger context of Christian history.

The great efflorescence of scientific activity that characterised the seventeenth century was regarded variously as a prelude to the millennium, as one facet of a general reformation of religion and learning, or as a means of helping to restore to the human race a mastery of nature that had been lost as a consequence of the Fall.

The idea of scientific progress thus initially derived its legitimacy from a providential understanding of history. The seventeenth and eighteenth centuries saw the emergence of a number of ‘scientific eschatologies’, which, in their secularised forms in the nineteenth century, were ironically to consign religion to a primitive stage of historical development. On this view of history, religion was destined to be displaced by science.

6. Religion and the Future of Science

The last few decades have witnessed a growing public disillusionment with a scientific enterprise that for much of the twentieth century had enjoyed unparalleled prestige.

The narrative of progress without limit now also looks a little threadbare. This final lecture considers whether the new ‘flight from science’ represents a regrettable defection from reason and ‘Enlightenment values’, or whether it presents an opportunity to reconnect the study of nature with the kinds of moral and religious values that once played a prominent role in its genesis and development.


The scientific revolution had opportunity to happen in many places but it happened in post reformation Europe
because the Christians believed God made the world a Cosmos, orderly and made to be discovered for His glory
 

Audie

Veteran Member
The scientific revolution had opportunity to happen in many places but it happened in post reformation Europe
because the Christians believed God made the world a Cosmos, orderly and made to be discovered for His glory

Curious it is how the scientific revolution has yet to reach you.
 
Last edited:

exchemist

Veteran Member
Curious how the scientific revolution has yet to reach you.
He has half a point, surely? The scientific revolution followed the Renaissance and was given impetus by the new independence of thought at the Reformation (and the printing press). These early proto-scientists were mostly religious men and a lot of them were actually clerics.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
He has half a point, surely? The scientific revolution followed the Renaissance and was given impetus by the new independence of thought at the Reformation (and the printing press). These early proto-scientists were mostly religious men and a lot of them were actually clerics.

I'd say considerably less than half.

Rome was doing very well, without any
Christians about.

Science in China was vastly ahead of Europe
or anywhere else at one point, and is heading
there again.

But the main thing is the false correlation,
the "because", where a more sober reading would
find "in spite of".

Of COURSE they were "religious men". It was
the only game in town.
Sputnik got up there because they were commies
or was communism the only game in town?


i find it especially weird,,the thing about how
Christianity promoted the idea of an orderly
world, when the bible is so full of magic.

But never mind, this is an idea of such deep
roots among the fundies, nothing will dislodge
it.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
He has half a point, surely? The scientific revolution followed the Renaissance and was given impetus by the new independence of thought at the Reformation (and the printing press). These early proto-scientists were mostly religious men and a lot of them were actually clerics.

Maybe a quarter point, . . . the scientific Revolution began in the Islamic world and the first coherent scientific methodology was proposed there.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I'd say considerably less than half.

Rome was doing very well, without any
Christians about.

Science in China was vastly ahead of Europe
or anywhere else at one point, and is heading
there again.

But the main thing is the false correlation,
the "because", where a more sober reading would
find "in spite of".

Of COURSE they were "religious men". It was
the only game in town.
Sputnik got up there because they were commies
or was communism the only game in town?


i find it especially weird,,the thing about how
Christianity promoted the idea of an orderly
world, when the bible is so full of magic.

But never mind, this is an idea of such deep
roots among the fundies, nothing will dislodge
it.
Audie, I commend this thread to you. Science and religion: history

The relationship between science and religion in Western Europe - which is, whether you like it or not, where the Scientific Revolution took place: Scientific Revolution - Wikipedia. is a lot more nuanced than you are giving it credit for. In your zeal to attack "fundies", you are falling prey to the facile notion that science and religion are somehow intrinsic enemies.
 
Science in China was vastly ahead of Europe

True, although, arguably, technologically advanced might be more fitting. Despite centuries of being far ahead in this regard there was no scientific revolution and there was little support for 'science' that held no practical application.

One problem is considering everything in the past that loosely resembled science to have been comparable to what we today would deem to be science.

But the main thing is the false correlation,
the "because", where a more sober reading would
find "in spite of".

A common complaint, yet based more on anachronistic assumptions than evidence. As noted in the OP, the idea that natural philosophy was independent of religion in the modern scientific sense is false.

If you watch the videos, you can see how hollow the claim that it was a 'false correlation' is. The link is very clearly demonstrated in their own words and actions.

The pop culture 'conflict myth' has been widely discredited since the mid-20th C. For various reasons, the general public hasn't quite caught up to this yet though.

Just watch the 5th one if you can't be bothered with them all.

But never mind, this is an idea of such deep
roots among the fundies, nothing will dislodge
it.

As noted in the OP, it is also widely supported by historians of science (although it tends to be somewhat more nuanced than the view presented by religious apologists).
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
It will be argued that these two ideas — science and religion — are distinctively Western and modern, that they are mutually interdependent, and that a recognition of their history will help revise our understanding of their present relations.

I think many would argue that science (as perceived now) has no dependence on religion at all and can exist without such. Not so much the other way though. Whatever the origins, this might not reflect the current position.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
True, although, arguably, technologically advanced might be more fitting. Despite centuries of being far ahead in this regard there was no scientific revolution and there was little support for 'science' that held no practical application.

One problem is considering everything in the past that loosely resembled science to have been comparable to what we today would deem to be science.



A common complaint, yet based more on anachronistic assumptions than evidence. As noted in the OP, the idea that natural philosophy was independent of religion in the modern scientific sense is false.

If you watch the videos, you can see how hollow the claim that it was a 'false correlation' is. The link is very clearly demonstrated in their own words and actions.

The pop culture 'conflict myth' has been widely discredited since the mid-20th C. For various reasons, the general public hasn't quite caught up to this yet though.

Just watch the 5th one if you can't be bothered with them all.



As noted in the OP, it is also widely supported by historians of science (although it tends to be somewhat more nuanced than the view presented by religious apologists).


Lack of nuance would be a nuanced way of putting it!

Chinese astronomy / navigation was certainly of
practical use, 500 and more years ago.

For my money, the early success of Europe had
more to do with geography than religion.

I wont be watching the series, but, it does seem to
me that the game of academe is to advance
ideas and discredit them, in a bit of a cycle

Seeing the ways that religion throws sand in the
gears any time it can, now, one can but suppose
that in the past, when superstition / religion /
monarchs all worked together to suppress ideas
and prevent change, it seems a strange notion
indeed that there was no conflict.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I've done some reading here and there on the topic of the third lecture in particular. It's of special interest to me as a Pagan, who thoroughly rejects the disenchantment narratives. The lecture might be talking about something other than what I'm thinking of, though. Gonna have to take a look at it first.

Just a personal anecdote, I do not perceive "religion" as set apart from "non-religion," and in particular I view science as a fundamentally religious activity. I pursued post-graduate education in a science because of my religion, in fact. Natural science is the study of the gods. I guess that means I'm stuck a few hundred years in the past. But we already knew that... I'm Pagan. :D
 
It will be argued that these two ideas — science and religion — are distinctively Western and modern, that they are mutually interdependent, and that a recognition of their history will help revise our understanding of their present relations.

I think many would argue that science (as perceived now) has no dependence on religion at all and can exist without such. Not so much the other way though. Whatever the origins, this might not reflect the current position.

It's not quite what you think based on the brief summary.

The lecture is more a discussion of why the triumph of the scientific-rationalist Western worldview that was assumed to be the destiny of the whole world due to 'progress' has failed to materialise.
 
Chinese astronomy / navigation was certainly of
practical use, 500 and more years ago.

My point was that 'science' which lacked direct, practical application was not valued (which was true in most societies for obvious reasons).

I wont be watching the series, but, it does seem to
me that the game of academe is to advance
ideas and discredit them, in a bit of a cycle

Seeing the ways that religion throws sand in the
gears any time it can, now, one can but suppose
that in the past, when superstition / religion /
monarchs all worked together to suppress ideas
and prevent change, it seems a strange notion
indeed that there was no conflict.

This is largely a myth based on highly selective and agenda driven views of history and anachronistic assumptions about historical society and scholarship. But people tend to prefer sticking to narratives that meet their prior assumptions rather than challenging them via critical reflection of the evidence.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
My point was that 'science' which lacked direct, practical application was not valued (which was true in most societies for obvious reasons).



This is largely a myth based on highly selective and agenda driven views of history and anachronistic assumptions about historical society and scholarship. But people tend to prefer sticking to narratives that meet their prior assumptions rather than challenging them via critical reflection of the evidence.

On point one, of course. Obvious.

On two, I might well have said that to you,
and likely with more reason / less calumny. :D

For lo, what are the hallmarks of religious thinking?

Agenda driven bias, yes. Prior assumptions, of course.

Critical reflection on evidence, only up to a point.

Like the creationist notion of there being a god-set limit
to evolution; so far, no further.

Venturing past that, it all falls apart.
 
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