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School trips and human rights

Premise: The European Court of Human Rights is correct in finding Russia guilty of violating the human rights of three women on the grounds that Russia did not prevent their husbands from committing acts of domestic violence against them, even though the Russian police had received complaints prior to the violence in question.

Conclusion: If a school allows a child, who is known to be badly behaved, to go on a trip to a public place, and on that trip the child harms a member of the public, the school has violated the human rights of that person.

It seems watertight to me. What am I missing?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
It seems watertight to me. What am I missing?
An understanding of when they'd try someone for violations against human rights. The school I would say should be held accountable, but it would extreme over kill the make the school appear before someone like Inter-American Court of Human Rights.
 
Usually charges of human-rights violations are when someone is a direct custodian, such as how the police treat prisoners, or when someone has authority to enter someone else's world, such as how soldiers treat non-combatants. However, the recent Russian ruling appears to have crossed a line.

If there is now the potential for being prosecuted for violating human rights by failing to protect third parties from people you have some degree of jurisdiction over, and some degree of knowledge of, this will be a game changer for sure. There are plenty of school heads who know perfectly well that, if they send a specific child on a school trip, it's not a case of whether they harm someone but when.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Usually charges of human-rights violations are when someone is a direct custodian, such as how the police treat prisoners, or when someone has authority to enter someone else's world, such as how soldiers treat non-combatants. However, the recent Russian ruling appears to have crossed a line.

If there is now the potential for being prosecuted for violating human rights by failing to protect third parties from people you have some degree of jurisdiction over, and some degree of knowledge of, this will be a game changer for sure. There are plenty of school heads who know perfectly well that, if they send a specific child on a school trip, it's not a case of whether they harm someone but when.
Until a crime has been committed, no crime has been committed. It's very difficult to prosecute anyone based on a presumption that they should be expected to see into the future.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
I do find the comparison between domestic violence crimes, grave crimes in any penal systems, to a child being poorly behaved to be extremely strange. I also find it strange, though to a lesser degree, that someone would compare the responsability of a police corp and that of a school or teacher.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Harm can be inflicted on a third party by a person below the age of eighteen and a person above the age of eighteen.

There is harm and there is harm though. There is a difference between beating someone and having a child screaming in a public place and being impolite.
 
Yes, and there is a difference between a child being impolite and a child knifing someone. I'm thinking more of cases like the latter rather than the former.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Yes, and there is a difference between a child being impolite and a child knifing someone. I'm thinking more of cases like the latter rather than the former.

Except children at high and known risk of killing other people just like that don't go on school trip. They are incredibly rare and held in specialised institutions. A school isn't designed nor responsible for the security of the public; it's responsible of the education of children and teens and even then, it's a shared responsability with the parents of the said children and teens. A police corp is. You are basically making completely fantasist comparisons.
 
Plenty of children have killed without first having been held in a specialised institution. They usually get put in such places after their most serious crime, not before. Prior to killing someone, they have generally not been absolute paragons of good behaviour. This is the information the head of the school has access to as they decide who is to be permitted on an excursion into a public place and who is not.

The several shoplifting children from the same school three years in a row, the child hurling stones at visitors in a park, the child holding someone up in the street at knifepoint and the child-stroke-young adult who was arrested for attempted murder in a local pub, all attending the same language school in the UK, were travelling with various group leaders who were cooperating with the educational institutions arranging the overseas trips. The idea that nobody beforehand had ever noticed anything amiss with their behaviour would stretch credibility to breaking point.

When it comes to school trips, educating children and responsible behaviour towards the public meet.

The Russian police were found to have violated human rights because, after finding relatively low-level cases of domestic violence, they failed to prevent higher levels of it as they did not adopt a zero-tolerance approach. When a school lets someone loose on the public, after having first seen evidence that their behaviour shows some sign of danger to another person, by the ECHR's logic this would be a human-rights violation, rather than merely irresponsible management of children.

Unlike the way individual countries create their laws, the ECHR sets a precedent which can then be applied to further cases. I suggest that, unless they overturn their ruling on Russia, there is going to be an avalanche of claims directed against schools by injured parties, to say nothing of what various therapists will be summoned to explain.
 
They cannot prosecute, but they often make a lot of noise about being able to prevent, especially when anyone questions why anyone should fund them.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
They cannot prosecute, but they often make a lot of noise about being able to prevent, especially when anyone questions why anyone should fund them.
I have no idea what you are talking about and can't parse your post very well as a result.
Would you mind bringing up some examples of what you're talking about here?
 
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Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
There's something called detention.
Schools typically don't have the power to enforce that on their own - they would need law enforcement to do that for them, if it is even something they can theoretically enforce to begin with.
And detention is not a punishment for a criminal offense to begin with.

Schools are not an institution of law enforcement, and were never meant to be - that is the police's job, ostensibly. I strongly doubt that this is different in the US than literally anywhere else.
 
Post # 15: It is fairly commonplace for a head teacher to say the children in their care learn more than just the three Rs.

One of the arguments state schools make for having taxpayer funding is that schools teach important life skills which make children become better members of the public. I dispute whether schools actually achieve this, or in some cases whether they even try.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Post # 15: It is fairly commonplace for a head teacher to say the children in their care learn more than just the three Rs.

One of the arguments state schools make for having taxpayer funding is that schools teach important life skills which make children become better members of the public. I dispute whether schools actually achieve this, or in some cases whether they even try.
What does any of this have to do with schools not being law enforcement, and not existing to prevent crime?
 
Both a police force and a school head teacher are able to grant and withhold permission for someone to come into contact with others after receiving the appropriate warnings that harm may be caused if they do so.

A police officer may be given the right to bind a man over, or arrest them, when there is evidence to suggest that doing nothing might allow him to harm his wife.
A head teacher could ban a child from going on a school trip when there is evidence to suggest that their behaviour is bad enough even in a school building, and is likely to be worse on an excursion.

The common denominator is not about existing to prevent crime. It is about having the ability to restrain someone and choosing not to. This is the hub of the ECHR's ruling.
 
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