Scenarios For Christians

[Neo Deist]

First off, I spent 30 years as a Southern Baptist, so I do have a fair amount of knowledge regarding Christianity. I would like to post some scenarios and see if you think that the people in the scenarios would be "saved" and go to "heaven" (paradise) or "burn in hell" based on your religious/denominational beliefs.

Note: these scenarios are based off of real world situations. If they bother you, just remember that these things happen all the time. My intent is not to bash any one particular religion/denomination.

Here we go...

Scenario #1

John lives a moral life. He helps other people in need, gives to charities, obeys the law, and takes care of his family. He is an honest man that values honor. He does not lie, cheat or steal. He dies having never set foot in church, never hearing the "word of God," and never accepted Jesus as his savior.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #2

Jane is a drug addict and prostitute. She breaks into houses, stores and cars in order to fund her drug use. She has been in/out of prison numerous times, stabbed another female while in prison, and lies constantly to try and get out of trouble. However, at the age of 10, she was "saved" because she was going to church with her family, and she accepted Jesus as a child, before she became an adult and started down a dark path. She dies of a drug overdose.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #3

Tom is a priest of 40 years. He grew up in the Church, was an altar boy, went to seminary and has served his parish ever since. He is a believer, performs all of the duties that is required of him, and on the outside he tries to be a role model toward his congregation. However, Tom has a dark secret...he likes little boys. He tries to seduce them and keeps those encounters "in check." One day he dies from a heart attack.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #4

Marcus is the true definition of thug. He has murdered several people over drugs, he started stealing at the age of 12, he has raped women, fought with police, terrorized his neighborhood, leads a gang that is known for being ultra violent, and burned down the local church for fun in an act of arson. He gets shot in a drug deal gone bad. He runs away and hides behind a house. That house belongs to a preacher, who comes out and sees Marcus bleeding to death. After calling 911, the preacher talks to Marcus and gets a "death bed" confession. Before his final breath, Marcus accepts Jesus as his savior.

Heaven or Hell?


Please explain your answers.

 

[Thana]

Heaven or Hell?

And where, in your 30 years of experience as a 'Christian', did you ever get the idea that any of us knew anything about who goes where, even for ourselves?

What determines our fate is not our deeds but our heart, and only God knows our hearts. That is scripture, which you should know, as someone who used to be Christian.

Man, It always amazes me when people think that because they used to think they believed in God that somehow qualifies them as experts. No one is an expert, and the only people's opinions I respect are the people who fight to keep their faith every day. Your 30 years means less than nothing, but keep waving it around if it makes you feel vindicated.

 

[Neo Deist]

Heaven or Hell?

And where, in your 30 years of experience as a 'Christian', did you ever get the idea that any of us knew anything about who goes where, even for ourselves?

What determines our fate is not our deeds but our heart, and only God knows our hearts. That is scripture, which you should know, as someone who used to be Christian.

Man, It always amazes me when people think that because they used to think they believed in God that somehow qualifies them as experts. No one is an expert, and the only people's opinions I respect are the people who fight to keep their faith every day. Your 30 years means less than nothing, but keep waving it around if it makes you feel vindicated.

What is this past tense you speak of? Used to believe in God...used to be a Christian...

And actually it is more than what is in your heart, according to Revelation 20:12-13. We are judged by our deeds. Go read...for it is Scripture.

But I see you did not attempt to answer those questions. I'll see if others do, based on their religious beliefs/teachings.

 

[Thana]

What is this past tense you speak of? Used to believe in God...used to be a Christian...

But I see you did not attempt to answer those questions. I'll see if others do, based on their religious beliefs/teachings.

I did answer you, my answer is - I don't know, none of us truly knows and you should know that.

You don't believe in God and you did used to be Christian. You believe in Deism, and your God is the Deist God. And you can't subscribe to Christianity and Deism because one postulates a knowable God and the other an unknowable God. You can't have both, you can't have your cake and eat it too, atleast not if you want to be taken seriously, that is.

 

[Neo Deist]

I did answer you, my answer is - I don't know, none of us truly knows and you should know that.

Fair enough...you don't know.

You don't believe in God and you did used to be Christian.

I never stopped, but thanks for dictating to me what my beliefs are.

You believe in Deism, and your God is the Deist God.

God is God, regardless of your subscribed "religion."

And you can't subscribe to Christianity and Deism because one postulates a knowable God and the other an unknowable God.

Deism: the belief in God.
Christianity: following the teachings of Jesus.

Works for me! Besides, Jesus is not God and he even says as much in the Bible.

You can't have both, you can't have your cake and eat it too...

Cake is good, and I have been enjoying it for a while now.

 

[Thana]

Fair enough...you don't know.

I never stopped, but thanks for dictating to me what my beliefs are.

God is God, regardless of your subscribed "religion."

Deism: the belief in God.
Christianity: following the teachings of Jesus.

Works for me! Besides, Jesus is not God and he even says as much in the Bible.

Cake is good, and I have been enjoying it for a while now.

Ah... forgive me. I'm a hypocrite, just the other day I was getting up my sister for trying to dictate to me what my beliefs should be.

Eat as much cake as you want.

I'm just getting tired of attacks on Christianity, honestly I think I've been on these forums too long.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ah... forgive me. I'm a hypocrite, just the other day I was getting up my sister for trying to dictate to me what my beliefs should be.

Eat as much cake as you want.

I'm just getting tired of attacks on Christianity, honestly I think I've been on these forums too long.

I honestly (unless they are direct attacks) many of us arent attacking Christianity but are rehashing what some of us see as some illogical things we believe Christianity (the religion) teaches. It has nothing to do with the spiritual nature of the teachings just as my asking why did the math teacher got that Math problem even though I dont like math.

Some of us learn by being educated others by a good healthy challenging discussion. If Christians on this board really understand many of us who were Christians are not attacking Jesus nor Jesus's followers. We arent attacking the teachings. We are challenging the teachings that sound illogical just as I would challenge the math teacher (though I dont like math) how he got answer X when in his math book it says Y...but he keeps telling me the same thing....repeating the same "scripture" of how he got the problem...but never going outside of the book using the same analogies and ways of conversation as his students (since he is a teacher) to answer the students question.

Its fustrating. Its like I see genuine questions asked by new RF people who dont know their question has been asked for the billioneth time. They are waiting for an honest answer. They say they want an honest answer.

No Christian believes him enough to follow his argument rather than debate against him on it.

Of course its like that the other way around. I just think if we (all of us) dont generalize everyone into one boat based on countless experiences (say my thinking all Pagans believe X because 99 percent say the same thing on these boards), then maybe that one percent chance (if one likes) of answering these questions may lead someone to Christ (or towards the spiritual path they are looking for).

Many reasons why people ask questions. I wouldnt take it as an attack unless they do it directly. If its not direct, online its better to ask for clarification unless the topic just doesnt interest you enough to even reply at all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

First off, I spent 30 years as a Southern Baptist, so I do have a fair amount of knowledge regarding Christianity. I would like to post some scenarios and see if you think that the people in the scenarios would be "saved" and go to "heaven" (paradise) or "burn in hell" based on your religious/denominational beliefs.

Note: these scenarios are based off of real world situations. If they bother you, just remember that these things happen all the time. My intent is not to bash any one particular religion/denomination.

Here we go...

Scenario #1

John lives a moral life. He helps other people in need, gives to charities, obeys the law, and takes care of his family. He is an honest man that values honor. He does not lie, cheat or steal. He dies having never set foot in church, never hearing the "word of God," and never accepted Jesus as his savior.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #2

Jane is a drug addict and prostitute. She breaks into houses, stores and cars in order to fund her drug use. She has been in/out of prison numerous times, stabbed another female while in prison, and lies constantly to try and get out of trouble. However, at the age of 10, she was "saved" because she was going to church with her family, and she accepted Jesus as a child, before she became an adult and started down a dark path. She dies of a drug overdose.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #3

Tom is a priest of 40 years. He grew up in the Church, was an altar boy, went to seminary and has served his parish ever since. He is a believer, performs all of the duties that is required of him, and on the outside he tries to be a role model toward his congregation. However, Tom has a dark secret...he likes little boys. He tries to seduce them and keeps those encounters "in check." One day he dies from a heart attack.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #4

Marcus is the true definition of thug. He has murdered several people over drugs, he started stealing at the age of 12, he has raped women, fought with police, terrorized his neighborhood, leads a gang that is known for being ultra violent, and burned down the local church for fun in an act of arson. He gets shot in a drug deal gone bad. He runs away and hides behind a house. That house belongs to a preacher, who comes out and sees Marcus bleeding to death. After calling 911, the preacher talks to Marcus and gets a "death bed" confession. Before his final breath, Marcus accepts Jesus as his savior.

Heaven or Hell?


Please explain your answers.

If a christian hasnt taken the sacraments of Christ and repented to live like Christ in Word and in deed, he is not saved. In mainstream Christianity, everyone is a sinner. So in all scenarios, all would go to hell unless the sacraments are taken.

Sacraments:

Baptism: Regardless if its in water or water/spirit (Dont think Christ will say "hey, you cant come to heaven because you forgot the water requirement." or "you used wanter, now your salvation is void")

Repentence: Confession and reconcilation turning, turning fron sin to righteousness (im sure you heard more than too often) is another cornerstone of Christ.

Communion: Cant imagine anyone who says they follow Christ but dont want to sit and eat with him at his tablle

Confirmation: Most Christians say "I want you to be my Lord and Savior" in whatever manner they say it in or deed they do to confirm it. Its done.

If these people in your scenarios dont have tese requirements, I honestly dont see them going to heaven--scripturally speaking.

Morally and objectively, all those scenarios are pretty bias. Its hard to decide the real intent of each player because there is a lot of stereotypes and misconceptions about each scenario that if that main character found christ, would it be based on amisconception (all priest molest boys) or his actual honest repentence of his sin that brings him into heaven. Things like that.

 

[Etritonakin]

First off, I spent 30 years as a Southern Baptist, so I do have a fair amount of knowledge regarding Christianity. I would like to post some scenarios and see if you think that the people in the scenarios would be "saved" and go to "heaven" (paradise) or "burn in hell" based on your religious/denominational beliefs.

Note: these scenarios are based off of real world situations. If they bother you, just remember that these things happen all the time. My intent is not to bash any one particular religion/denomination.

Here we go...

Scenario #1

John lives a moral life. He helps other people in need, gives to charities, obeys the law, and takes care of his family. He is an honest man that values honor. He does not lie, cheat or steal. He dies having never set foot in church, never hearing the "word of God," and never accepted Jesus as his savior.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #2

Jane is a drug addict and prostitute. She breaks into houses, stores and cars in order to fund her drug use. She has been in/out of prison numerous times, stabbed another female while in prison, and lies constantly to try and get out of trouble. However, at the age of 10, she was "saved" because she was going to church with her family, and she accepted Jesus as a child, before she became an adult and started down a dark path. She dies of a drug overdose.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #3

Tom is a priest of 40 years. He grew up in the Church, was an altar boy, went to seminary and has served his parish ever since. He is a believer, performs all of the duties that is required of him, and on the outside he tries to be a role model toward his congregation. However, Tom has a dark secret...he likes little boys. He tries to seduce them and keeps those encounters "in check." One day he dies from a heart attack.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #4

Marcus is the true definition of thug. He has murdered several people over drugs, he started stealing at the age of 12, he has raped women, fought with police, terrorized his neighborhood, leads a gang that is known for being ultra violent, and burned down the local church for fun in an act of arson. He gets shot in a drug deal gone bad. He runs away and hides behind a house. That house belongs to a preacher, who comes out and sees Marcus bleeding to death. After calling 911, the preacher talks to Marcus and gets a "death bed" confession. Before his final breath, Marcus accepts Jesus as his savior.

Heaven or Hell?


Please explain your answers.

Read the bible.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

1. Heaven. God (and later, Jesus) seemed to feel physical buildings were unnecessary anyway.

2. Heaven. The girl is screwed up. Drugs promoted most of her behavior as they "reprogram" you, so to speak. Drugs can't go to heaven or hell. She needs the love and compassion from Heaven, not sent to hell because some chemicals screwed her up.

3. Heaven. Similar to the drug addict: while naturally in real life we must protect kids from people like him, heaven is about not suffering anymore. Imagine craving peanut butter sandwiches and you are allergic to peanuts. It's harmful and yet your body demands it anyway. From a practical standpoint in the real world, his desires must be controlled. However, heaven and hell don't work that way. Everyone's already dead so there's no one to protect.

4. Hopefully Heaven. Again, most of what people do is due to things that simply added up. God looks at the factors behind your actions, not just your actions. "God doesn't judge as man judges, He looks at the heart" sorta thing. In the real world, early assessment and treatment have have spared this person that particular lifestyle. It's one thing to blame a person for choosing the wrong option and then refuse to assist said person with the better ones. If you can't get a "real" job because of your race or religion or gender or previous criminal background, you will STILL be in the same boat: little to no options. Doors must be open-able in order for people to go through them. Too many people suffer because the doors have been nailed shut.

 

[Neo Deist]

1. Heaven. God (and later, Jesus) seemed to feel physical buildings were unnecessary anyway.

This one I agree with. Revelation states that all will be judged by their deeds.

2. Heaven. The girl is screwed up. Drugs promoted most of her behavior as they "reprogram" you, so to speak. Drugs can't go to heaven or hell. She needs the love and compassion from Heaven, not sent to hell because some chemicals screwed her up.

Eternal security example. The Bible does not say it (that I am aware of) but it is preached about in Protestant circles (I know that for a fact). I am on the fence with this one.

3. Heaven. Similar to the drug addict: while naturally in real life we must protect kids from people like him, heaven is about not suffering anymore. Imagine craving peanut butter sandwiches and you are allergic to peanuts. It's harmful and yet your body demands it anyway. From a practical standpoint in the real world, his desires must be controlled. However, heaven and hell don't work that way. Everyone's already dead so there's no one to protect.

As much as I would want someone like this roasting in hell, I would agree that it would be heaven...although God might have a few extra questions for this individual at Judgment.

4. Hopefully Heaven. Again, most of what people do is due to things that simply added up. God looks at the factors behind your actions, not just your actions. "God doesn't judge as man judges, He looks at the heart" sorta thing. In the real world, early assessment and treatment have have spared this person that particular lifestyle. It's one thing to blame a person for choosing the wrong option and then refuse to assist said person with the better ones. If you can't get a "real" job because of your race or religion or gender or previous criminal background, you will STILL be in the same boat: little to no options. Doors must be open-able in order for people to go through them. Too many people suffer because the doors have been nailed shut.

Straight to hell imho. If judged by his deeds, only to have a last second confession out of fear (not genuine), then let him burn.





Not that I believe in hell...

P.S. - thanks for taking the time to answer. It seems many people were reluctant to even make the attempt.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

While I accept the idea that Jesus may have said that a tree that didn't grow up straight should be cut down, the fact is that if the Gardener had any sense and knowledge about how trees work, it wouldn't have grown crooked in the first place.

 

[Muffled]

First off, I spent 30 years as a Southern Baptist, so I do have a fair amount of knowledge regarding Christianity. I would like to post some scenarios and see if you think that the people in the scenarios would be "saved" and go to "heaven" (paradise) or "burn in hell" based on your religious/denominational beliefs.

Note: these scenarios are based off of real world situations. If they bother you, just remember that these things happen all the time. My intent is not to bash any one particular religion/denomination.

Here we go...

Scenario #1

John lives a moral life. He helps other people in need, gives to charities, obeys the law, and takes care of his family. He is an honest man that values honor. He does not lie, cheat or steal. He dies having never set foot in church, never hearing the "word of God," and never accepted Jesus as his savior.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #2

Jane is a drug addict and prostitute. She breaks into houses, stores and cars in order to fund her drug use. She has been in/out of prison numerous times, stabbed another female while in prison, and lies constantly to try and get out of trouble. However, at the age of 10, she was "saved" because she was going to church with her family, and she accepted Jesus as a child, before she became an adult and started down a dark path. She dies of a drug overdose.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #3

Tom is a priest of 40 years. He grew up in the Church, was an altar boy, went to seminary and has served his parish ever since. He is a believer, performs all of the duties that is required of him, and on the outside he tries to be a role model toward his congregation. However, Tom has a dark secret...he likes little boys. He tries to seduce them and keeps those encounters "in check." One day he dies from a heart attack.

Heaven or Hell?

Scenario #4

Marcus is the true definition of thug. He has murdered several people over drugs, he started stealing at the age of 12, he has raped women, fought with police, terrorized his neighborhood, leads a gang that is known for being ultra violent, and burned down the local church for fun in an act of arson. He gets shot in a drug deal gone bad. He runs away and hides behind a house. That house belongs to a preacher, who comes out and sees Marcus bleeding to death. After calling 911, the preacher talks to Marcus and gets a "death bed" confession. Before his final breath, Marcus accepts Jesus as his savior.

Heaven or Hell?


Please explain your answers.

I believe neither in all cases. #4 will make it into the kingdom of God which is the real important question. The others would not if this were the end but it is not the end yet, so they still have time to repent and receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[Muffled]

What is this past tense you speak of? Used to believe in God...used to be a Christian...

And actually it is more than what is in your heart, according to Revelation 20:12-13. We are judged by our deeds. Go read...for it is Scripture.

But I see you did not attempt to answer those questions. I'll see if others do, based on their religious beliefs/teachings.

I believe the passage in Revelations is a bit cryptic. Since there is no way to know how a person gets his name in the book of life since none is mentioned then we don't know who gets thrown into Hell. However I don't believe Jesus is changing the rules for these people, so it remains that a person will have to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior to get into the Kingdom of God. All others are not likely to be found in the book of life.

 

[Muffled]

1. Heaven. God (and later, Jesus) seemed to feel physical buildings were unnecessary anyway.

2. Heaven. The girl is screwed up. Drugs promoted most of her behavior as they "reprogram" you, so to speak. Drugs can't go to heaven or hell. She needs the love and compassion from Heaven, not sent to hell because some chemicals screwed her up.

3. Heaven. Similar to the drug addict: while naturally in real life we must protect kids from people like him, heaven is about not suffering anymore. Imagine craving peanut butter sandwiches and you are allergic to peanuts. It's harmful and yet your body demands it anyway. From a practical standpoint in the real world, his desires must be controlled. However, heaven and hell don't work that way. Everyone's already dead so there's no one to protect.

4. Hopefully Heaven. Again, most of what people do is due to things that simply added up. God looks at the factors behind your actions, not just your actions. "God doesn't judge as man judges, He looks at the heart" sorta thing. In the real world, early assessment and treatment have have spared this person that particular lifestyle. It's one thing to blame a person for choosing the wrong option and then refuse to assist said person with the better ones. If you can't get a "real" job because of your race or religion or gender or previous criminal background, you will STILL be in the same boat: little to no options. Doors must be open-able in order for people to go through them. Too many people suffer because the doors have been nailed shut.

I believe your reason is a non-sequitur. It matters not whether Heaven has buildings or not or even if the person believes there are buildings or not because neither will get him there.

I believe you are confused. The issue here is whether the girl was actually saved or not. It amazed me that my wife who seldom went to church after her youth managed to remember a key Sunday School song when confronted with a demon. Who knows what she will remember after death but a lack of experience in adulthood makes the likelihood somewhat less. Possibly the sin issue comes up if the person holds beliefs about it.

I believe Catholics are less likely to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior but someone who has studied the Bible like a priest has a fighting chance to make it to Heaven. I believe in this case the sin question is well handled by the blood in the RC church.

I believe deathbed salvation is not very likely to help a person get to Heaven. I have to laugh when people think that being saved means one doesn't get judged. Man proposes but in the end God disposes.

 

[Neo Deist]

I believe the passage in Revelations is a bit cryptic.

Just for the record, it is "Revelation"...no 's'.

 

[rusra02]

The Bible answer to all scenarios is neither. The dead go to the grave, according to the Bible. God does not torment anyone in a burning hell. The hope for both the righteous and unrighteous is a resurrection from death back to life, IMO. ( Acts 24:15)

 

[aoji]

No matter what answer is given it will be tainted by one's belief system. So the Christian will answer according to what he has been taught, perhaps 1-3: no, 4: yes. Others, who see the world differently will say that just accepting Jesus as your saviour is not enough, that even Jesus railed against the pious Jews. Over and over Jesus would look into the individual's heart and know whether innocence or evil was at it's core. Therefore, one who dies with an innocent heart will go to Heaven, one who dies with an evil heart will go to Hell. The Spirit has been conditioned, has been coloured, has been tainted by sin. None die innocent, no? And yet, Jesus spoke of being "born again". Those who have an Eastern Religious view will probably say that is "Enlightenment". The goal of life is to be Enlightened while one is incarnated. And if this Life is all there is then one can either be a loving, compassionate and empathetic person or one can be ruthless, devious, murderous, thief, person. And through it all, no matter what one chooses, he will say that that is the way he is, that that is his nature.

My Buddhist beliefs say that as the brain cells die, they will release their memories as they finally release their cell energies; that the brain will then try to make other circuits between cells and thereby trigger memories. They will see their self going though Hell (say the 4 Bardos - hot heat, cold, wind, water); that the one who can keep his mind clear past these Bardos will enter "Paradise" / Nirvana, Heaven, etc.

Neo Deist, go visit a Hospice. ask the old people who are about to die what they think. Pose your question to them. I think you'll be surprised by their answers - that you're wasting precious time asking "stupid" questions, that instead of 'asking' you should be 'doing' for others. Yoda would say, "Don't think, do!". Jesus would say, "'Do' with a pure heart."

 

[viole]

Ah... forgive me. I'm a hypocrite, just the other day I was getting up my sister for trying to dictate to me what my beliefs should be.

Eat as much cake as you want.

I'm just getting tired of attacks on Christianity, honestly I think I've been on these forums too long.

My I ask why? Just curiosity. If I really believed in God, I would probably be immune from all attacks to Christianity.

I used to frequent fundies web sites where I was basically the only atheist around. Attacks to my atheism, evolution, naturalism, my delusion, together with constant reminders of my overheated afterlife, etc. were ubiquitous.

And I enjoyed them pretty much. What could have convinced me more that I was right?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Thana]

My I ask why? Just curiosity. If I really believed in God, I would probably be immune from all attacks to Christianity.

I used to frequent fundies web sites where I was basically the only atheist around. Attacks to my atheism, evolution, naturalism, my delusion, together with constant reminders of my overheated afterlife, etc. were ubiquitous.

And I enjoyed them pretty much. What could have convinced me more that I was right?

Ciao

- viole

Because it's always really, really stupid. And at some point you're just drowning in other people's ignorance and no matter how much you kick and struggle it doesn't get you anywhere. No matter what I say, the same threads with the same ignorant questions come around again and again.

I don't enjoy debating the same things over and over, especially with people who don't actually want to understand Christianity, they just want to throw crap on it to see what sticks.

And honestly, I don't need validation from other people. I don't need to be proven right or win any arguments to feel justified in my beliefs.