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Featured Saying or writing Jehovah, isn't wrong...

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Desert Snake, Feb 1, 2019.

  1. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    No, that would be mehaweh. The root hwh gains the m prefix in the present tense causative (hif'il) form. The last vowel e indicates a masculine form.
     
  2. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    No, that is how we translate our own Scriptures.

    This is how we interpret it (from your link):
    This is My name forever: Heb. לְעֹלָם [It is spelled] without a vav, meaning: conceal it [God’s name] תהַעִלִימֵהוּ [so] that it should not be read as it is written. — [from Pes. 50a] Since the “vav” of (לְעֹלָ ם) is missing, we are to understand it as לְעַלֵּם, to conceal, meaning that the pronunciation of the way God’s name is written (י-ה-ו-ה) is to be concealed. — [from Pes. 50a.]​
     
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  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    There is not a single command from Jehovah to avoid saying his name with due reverence. The Bible writers had no compunction about proudly proclaiming the name of their God. The KJV at Psalm 83:18 does so. But when you read Exodus 3:14-15 in the same Bible, God's name is missing.

    The Jews got carried away with making frivolous oaths in God's name but were actually breaking the 4th Commandment (about taking God's name in vain). So rather than be accused of breaking God's law they decided not to use it at all. It remained as YHWH in their scripture, but was not uttered lest they profane God's name accidentally. That is not what that command meant. It meant not to identify Jehovah as your God and then bring reproach on him by your words or actions.

    At least in Jewish scripture it is still there in the text even if no one utters it because the pronunciation has been lost....but in most English translations it has now been taken out completely and substituted with titles.

    Imagine a well known human writer who had his name removed from his own literary work and substituted his name for the title, "Author". Not very respectful, is it?
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Why? What is the point of revealing his name to man if it is not to be uttered?
     
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  5. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Names in the Tanach give us insight into the named.
    Why does G-d make Himself known by the various Names used throughout Tanach? Why do different people use different Names for G-d at different times in Tanach?In Ex. 6:3, G-d tells Moses that He was not known by the Tetragrammaton to the Patriarchs. Yet in Gen. 13:4, Abraham refers to G-d by the Tetragrammaton and he does so explicitly in 14:22. And that's one of three or four different ways that Abraham uses to refer to G-d.
    The Names of G-d give us insight into different forms of G-d's administration. When a character or narrative is relating to a specific form of administration, it uses the specific Name that expresses that form of administration. Ex. 6:3 is not saying that the Patriarchs did not know the Tetragrammaon. They knew the Name and they used it. What they didn't know was the experience of the form of Divine Providence that the Tetragrammaton represents. There experience of Divine Providence was through a different Name.
     
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  6. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Everything you have said is wrong. Saying the name of God was very sacred that only the Priests of Israel were the only ones allowed to say the name of God. During the reading of the scrolls/ scriptures to the people and this being the only time God's name could be mention by the priest themselves only and no other time.

    Why do you suppose when Moses ask God what is his name, because the people would ask Moses what is name.
    And God said to Moses ( I Am That I Am )
    has sent you This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

    Exodus 3:13-15---"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

    14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

    15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations"

    So if its not wrong to write or say God's name then why didn't God tell Moses what his name is other than saying
    ( I Am That I Am) this is my name for ever and this is my memorial unto all generations"
     
  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find only the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) stands for God's personal name. (.... Hallowed by thy name.... )
    Lord (and in all upper-case letters in the King James as LORD -Psalms 110) is a title.
    The word God is also Not a name but a title.
     
  8. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I understand why, as a Christian, that makes sense to you. Your god can take the limited form of a person, so he can also be expressed in the limiting form of a name, so there's no problem with reading those parts of the Tanach literally.
    The Jewish G-d cannot be defined in any sort of finite terms at all, so all terms in Tanach used to relate to G-d can only be understood relatively. G-d's Names can only be understood as perceptions of G-d's administration of the world, because all of our relation to G-d is only through His administration of the world. When G-d says that the Tetragrammaton is His Name, He's saying that this is the most basic level of administration, that out of this form of administration, all other perceptions of administration descend.
    For instance, we have the Tetragrammaton which connotes G-d's Causative-ness. We have the Name Elo-him, which expresses G-d's Power. When G-d creates the world, He is causing the world to come into existence. But the aspect that is brought to the fore, is G-d's Power out of which all the natures of creation are brought into existence. When G-d grants overflowing success to the Patriarchs, G-d is causing their success. But what is brought to the fore, is G-d's Beneficience denoted by the Name Sha-dai. The aspect that my Patriarchs did not experience for themselves, was G-d's fulfillment of all the promises He made to them concerning their children. That experience of the fulfillment of G-d's promise is an experience of His Causative-ness, which here is expressed as G-d's ability to cause events to occur according to His Will.
    So for Jewish people, all the Names the Tanach uses for these forms of administration are called Names, while the Tetragrammaton is considered the most central of them.
     
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  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    But at Exodus 3:15, Jehovah did state His Name there:

    And God said to Moses again “You are to say to the sons of Israel ‘Jehovah, your fathers’ God, Abraham’s God, Isaac’s God, Jacob’s God, has sent me to you’; this is my name forever, and this is my identification for generation after generation."
    -- Byington's

    "For generation after generation",
    huh? Somebody dropped the ball! I guess they're not interested in "everlasting life"! -- John 17:3
     
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  10. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The Hebrew JHWH translated to English, means 'I Am' "Who I Am," The only name in heaven or earth by which we can be saved.

    Exodus 3: 14; God said to Moses; “I Am, 'Who I Am.' ”

    Today I became the one I am, the one that I was yesterday is gone
    The one I’ll be tomorrow I will be: but today I found “I AM Who I Am.”

    For, I am, ‘who I am’ and may I never lose sight
    Of the fact that I am “Who I Am” day and night
    I’m not who I was nor who I will be,
    For “Who I Am” is the name that My God gave to me.

    And now my friend, come soar with me
    To the outer limits of reality
    This universe, though wide it seems
    Is but the shadow of our dreams
    We are nought but knowledge in these tents
    Refined through pain and punishment
    We're the hive of man and neath His rod
    We are one, we're the Son of God
    The past, the present, the future is He
    He was, He is, and He will be
    And heaven is but a point in time
    To where the spirit in man must climb
    Eventually when He's there at last
    And stands and gazes on His past
    And takes the throne prepared in heaven
    Then all His past will be forgiven.
    I am who I am, the die is cast
    For I was created by my past
    And we who we are this very day
    Determines His future in every way
    If my past were changed, then who would I be?
    One thing is certain, I wouldn't be me.

    So get behind me you Charlatan priests, and you shams
    For I am true to my God, to MY God, “WHO I AM.”

    Until you can accept 'Who You Are' You will not be accepted by God, who cannot stand liars.
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Then maybe you can show as to where God stated his name in the KJV bible and the Jewish Torah,
    Seeing how both of them are stating the same thing, But no mentioning of God saying his name ( Jehovah)

    The KJV bible
    Exodus 3:15--"And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations"


    The Jewish Torah
    Exodus 3:15---"And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation"

    As you can see that God said nothing about giving his name.
    In either the KJV bible or the Torah.

    As I have come across this very thing before with Jehovah witnesses, as the Jehovah witnesses are known for deleting and adding to God's word.
    As the Jehovah witnesses are big on putting the name ( Jehovah) in places where it's not mention.
    God gave warning two times about adding and deleting from his word in the books of Deuteronomy and the book of Revelation.


    Deuteronomy 4:2--"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you"

    And in the book of Revelation 22:18-19--
    18--"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    19-- "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book"
     
    #31 Faithofchristian, Feb 5, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply.
    To me Elo-him is Not a personal Tetragrammaton (YHWH) name, because Elo-him means 'God'. (a title word)
    Also, some say Adho-nai' which I find is also Not a personal name, but means 'Sovereign Lord'. (a title)
    Matthew does use hash-Shem' and the Hebrew hash-Shem means 'The Name' in reference to the divine name.
    Matthew 3:3's passage is in reference to Isaiah 40:3.
    Thus, Matthew was was making a reference to the old Hebrew Scriptures were the Tetragrammaton is found.
    So, Matthew was incorporating the ' divine name ' in his gospel account.
    This shows then that Matthew actually used the Tetragrammaton in supporting the Christian Scriptures.
     
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  13. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Did you just break into dramatic song and dance in the middle of a post...?
     
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  14. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    This is the effect you have on people. It's not just me after all.
     
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  15. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    What I feel is part of this confusion is the use of the word "name." In Hebrew, as in English, the word name ("shem") does not necessarily signify a personal/private combination of identifying letters. Name refers to rank, to reputation, to title, among other things. When God says "this is my name" we need to figure that what follows (or precedes) is a singular identifier which is somehow qualitatively different from other titles. Judaism takes that to the extreme, saying that since God is not a person, none of the various titles needs be thought of as any kind of human-like "name" -- all are titles or labels. Each has use and "meaning" but not necessarily direct translation or limitations. So the 4 letter name refers to an aspect of God's identity as do other names. In some cases, a word can be used as God's "name" because its meaning captures one aspect of God's presence.

    So when the text reports that God calls himself "eh'yeh asher ehyeh" (I will be that which I will be) it doesn't mean that that set of 3 words is on his name tag, just that he is making a statement about his role as the presence which will be there to support his people in this and future sufferings. When the 4 letter name is used (it is a combination of the to-be verb forms across tenses), it is pointing to an eternal nature.

    Then we have the secondary question: do we translate names (and does this depend on the nature of the name as a personal identifier or a quality-label)? In general, the text does not translate personal names. It often transliterates them and anglicizes (Greekifies?) them, so Yirmiyahu becomes Jeremiah, Yitro becomes Jethro etc. In Judaism, the names are neither translated nor transliterated. So Jehova (a transliteration based on erroneous vowel points under Hebrew consonants) would be well outside of the Jewish understanding for many reasons.
     
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  16. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    KJV Exodus 3:14. "And God said unto Moses, I am, that I am, (In Hebrew, JHWH) Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, 'I AM' has sent me unto you. (15) And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, (I AM) and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation"
     
  17. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Of course for me, Matthew isn't an authority whether your interpretation of his position is truly his position or not. I'm also not sure what you mean by "personal Tetragrammaton name". The Tetragrammaton is only one Name of four (tetra) letters.
    Elohim can and is used as a title for G-d when it's prefixed with a definite article. Otherwise, the correct form the word should take as a title is "eloah". The same for 'adon'. In the plural (as Elo-him and Ado-nai) these words uniquely identify a specific individual. That is exactly the definition of a name.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Definition of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is Not Ado-nai nor Elohim but those two titles which describes God.
    Just as Lord is a title.
    There are two (2) LORD/Lord's mentioned in the King James Version at Psalms 110.
    The Upper-Case LORD stands for the Tetragrammaton name.
    The Lord, in some lower case-letters, stand for the Lord Jesus. No Tetragrammaton there.
    So, Jesus is Not the Tetragrammaton name.
    Jesus did Not pray his name should be hallowed (held sacred) but that his God's name should be hallowed.
    Scholars look at the Hebrew Tetragrammaton name as being Yahweh or Yeho'wah.
    'Ha-lelu-Yah' is in reference to God's personal name. ' Praise Yah ( Latinized 'Jah') you people.'
    - Psalms 104:35; Psalms 150:1; Psalms 150:6; Psalms 89:8
    Thus, Yah or Jah is Not a synonym for the title word God or LORD, but it is an abbreviation of God's personal name as found recorded at Psalms 83:18.
     
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  19. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    There is no where in Exodus 3:14-15, That God said is name is JHWH.
    Only God said ( I Am That I Am)

    All your trying to do, is add into Exodus 3:14-15 that is not there.
    Otherwise show as to where in Exodus 3:14-15 where the name JHWH is being made mentioning of.
     
  20. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    It looks like you've turned to just shooting what you think to be factoids at me, rather than responding to the actual content of my response.
    I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're trying to be inflammatory, rather than that you're stupid and don't realize you're moving the conversation outside neutral territory.
    Ignoring that part, in Psalm 110:1 we find the Tetragrammaton and the word "adoni". The word "adoni" (the 'i' is pronounced as a long 'e') means, "my master". This is not the same as the word Adon-ai (where the 'ai' is pronounced as a long 'i') which refers to G-d. They are spelled the same in Hebrew, but the vowelization points are different.

    I have no idea what you're talking about and please don't explain it either.

    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. I'm guessing this is part of the "shot random factoids at him" technique.
     
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