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Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
In the Holy Quran the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon Him) has said:

4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth.

With reference to the Quran and Bible, what did Muhammad teach about the Christian concept of the Trinity? Do Muhammad’s Teachings contradict what the Bible has to say about the Trinity? If so, why? If not, why not?

Was Jesus a Messenger of Allah as spoken of by Muhammad? Arguments based on either the Quran and/ or the Bible are acceptable as this is a discussion and debate about scripture.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh, you talk about 'Trinity'! We have thousands of God and Goddesses. :D

The Abrahamic Faiths with their monotheism are never going to compete with their polytheistic cousins on the Indian subcontinent, that is true. Perhaps Christianity was trying to be more like the Hindus and have three gods instead of one! Anyway last time I counted you had less gods than the monotheists. Some Hindu you are.:D
 

Crosstian

Baring the Cross
In the Holy Quran the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon Him) has said:

4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth.

With reference to the Quran and Bible, what did Muhammad teach about the Christian concept of the Trinity? Do Muhammad’s Teachings ... has to say about the Trinity?...
First of all, that 'translation' of the Uthmanic recsension Arabic, is wrong, as the Arabic doesn't ever say "trinity" (which shows that translation was affected by Jesuits). It just says "three" (; or ثَلَاثَةٌ) in Arabic.

Translation - Surah An-Nisa [4:171]
Or - an-Nisa` 4:171

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لَا تَغْلُوا فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلَا تَقُولُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ إِلَّا الْحَقَّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلَا تَقُولُوا ثَلَاثَةٌ انتَهُوا خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللَّهُ إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَكَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ وَكِيلًا

Sahih International An Nisa' 4:171 O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Furthermore, the Arabic "allah" is a singular (as in not a plural) word (which is shown in the Sahih International translation, when it says, "Allah is but one God"). It is not a plural word as the Hebrew "Elohiym" (true plural, 3 or greater). The Arabic word "ilah" means "god", but that is not what "Allah" means (as we see in the Arabic itself, "ﭹ ﭺ
", "اللَّهُ إِلَٰهٌ", literally "allah (is) god", showing the difference).
 
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Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
  1. With reference to the Quran and Bible, what did Muhammad teach about the Christian concept of the Trinity?
  2. Do Muhammad’s Teachings contradict what the Bible has to say about the Trinity?
  3. If so, why?
  4. If not, why not?
  5. Was Jesus a Messenger of Allah as spoken of by Muhammad?
Re: #1. Since the Bible does not specifically AND indisputably identify and describe the Trinity, "referring to the Bible" involves a tedious trip down a "rabbit hole" which I don't intend to engage in doing.
  • I have heard some Christians say that the author of the Qur'an incorrectly believed that the Christian "Trinity" consists of God, Jesus, and Jesus' mother, Mary.
  • I have also read at least one Muslim author who denied that the Qur'an specifies the third person of the Trinity.
  • Obviously, anyone who doesn't know who the Trinity consists of or claims that the Trinity consists of God, Jesus, and some other being/person or consists of the Father, Jesus the Son, and some person or being other than the Holy Ghost/Spirit is woefully uninformed and not a credible source of information regarding Christianity's Trinity.
  • A fair question would be: What does the Bible have to say about the Trinity? If one can not answer that question, one cannot answer "Yes", "Maybe", or "No".
  • A more interesting question would be: Are Allah and YHWH the same God? I say "No".
Re: #2. Yes.

Re: #3: Regardless what Muhammad's teachings are, whether one believes the Bible identifies and describes the Trinity or not, Allah is not YHWH, therefore, Muhammad's teachings contradict what the Bible says about God.

Re: #4. Not applicable.

Re: #5. Some might say: "Yes." I say: "Not a chance."
 

Crosstian

Baring the Cross
In the Holy Quran the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon Him) has said: ...

Was Jesus a Messenger of Allah as spoken of by Muhammad? ...
Additionally, there is nothing "holy" about "qur'an", and the title of qur'an doesn't ever say "holy". What it does say is "Al-Qur'an al-Kareem - القرآن الكريم", which does not ever translate into "holy 'qur'an", the Arabic word "qur'an" simply means "recting" (by speaking, or repetitions (as Jesus would say "vain repetitions" and "much speaking"; Matthew 6:7 KJB), and "kareem" simply means "generous" (as in "much", "overflowing"), so it literally translates from Arabic into English as "much recitations (repetitions)".

Additionally, the 'Isa of qur'an is not the actual historical Jesus of scripture (OT/NT, Masoretic Hebrew, koine Greek TR; English KJB). The 'Isa of qur'an is a mythical imaginary construct, and as one person at one time put it, a 'theological argument'.

The "allah" of qur'an is most definitely not the Elohiym of Holy scripture, being JEHOVAH Elohiym. Not the same word, not even the same numerically. The characters of the "allah" and "JEHOVAH Elohiym" are as night and day differing.

By the standards, set up in scripture, Abu al Qasim ('father of Qasim', or Muhammad; meaning 'praised one'), is not a true prophet, but a false one from the desert, as Jesus foretold:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Mat_24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.​
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
First of all, that 'translation' of the Uthmanic recsension Arabic, is wrong, as the Arabic doesn't ever say "trinity" (which shows that translation was affected by Jesuits). It just says "three" (; or ثَلَاثَةٌ) in Arabic.

Translation - Surah An-Nisa [4:171]
Or - an-Nisa` 4:171

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لَا تَغْلُوا فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلَا تَقُولُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ إِلَّا الْحَقَّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلَا تَقُولُوا ثَلَاثَةٌ انتَهُوا خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللَّهُ إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَكَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ وَكِيلًا

Sahih Internatioonal An Nisa' 4:171 O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Furthermore, the Arabic "allah" is a singular (as in not a plural) word (which is shown in the Sahih International translation, when it says, "Allah is but one God"). It is not a plural word as the Hebrew "Elohiym" (true plural, 3 or greater). The Arabic word "ilah" means "god", but that is not what "Allah" means (as we see in the Arabic itself, "ﭹ ﭺ
", "اللَّهُ إِلَٰهٌ", literally "allah (is) god", showing the difference).

There are clearly translations of Quran 4:171 that use the word three instead of trinity.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

The fact remains the verse refers at least in part to Christian theology about the nature of God (Allah). So the use of the word ‘three’ in reference to Christian theology is likely a reference to the Christian concept of the trinity or alternatively an allusion to the Divinity of Christ. Both concepts were well established in the locality of the Arabian Peninsula at the time Muhammad Revealed the Quran.

I’m not clear where you want to go with the reference to Elohiym? Do you see it as evidence for a triune god?
 

Crosstian

Baring the Cross
There are clearly translations of Quran 4:171 that use the word three instead of trinity....
And I told you where it [trinity] comes from, Jesuits, who are on the 'modern' Bible translation committees, such as Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, SJ [1] and others, and so also on the qur'anic translation committees (as an older example: "[Ignazio] Lomellini, a Jesuit, transcribed the entire Arabic text of the Qur’an and produced a Latin translation and commentary, dated 1622." [2] or "Ludovico Marracci [SJ]" [3] or "Lammens [SJ]" [4]) and "Boulad [SJ], ... rector of the Jesuit college in Cairo where many Muslims ... studied." [5]), and is no different for Baha'i's texts either (dig deep, you'll see).
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The Abrahamic Faiths with their monotheism are never going to compete with their polytheistic cousins on the Indian subcontinent
Hindus are generally monotheistic.

There is only one Source Brahman, and all things come from that One Source.
With reference to the Quran and Bible, what did Muhammad teach about the Christian concept of the Trinity?
The Quran speaks about the Divine Council; yet makes clear like in Hinduism that the Source, Allah which means the God Most High, is beyond form, and is the ultimate Source of all of our reality.

38:69 I had no knowledge of the Heavenly Beings when they were debating (about the creation of ’Ādam).

37:8 They cannot listen to the higher group (angels) for they are pelted from every side.


In ancient times it was understood how the Elohim were originally called the Sons of El, and were seen as the Divine Council...

Some Tribes had polyethism and henotheism, where they'd started worshipping the Divine Representatives as Lords...

The Quran Makes clear do not make Lords out of Messengers instead only worship the Source:

12:39-40 "O my two companions of the prison! [I ask you]: are many lords differing among themselves better, or the One Allah, Supreme and Irresistible? You worship not besides Him except [mere] names you have named them, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. Legislation is not but for Allah . He has commanded that you worship not except Him. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.

Do Muhammad’s Teachings contradict what the Bible has to say about the Trinity? If so, why? If not, why not?
When we remove the false texts from the New Testament (John, Paul, and Simon) these create direct idolatry, by making a man the incarnated Godhead; which breaks the 2nd commandment - as the Source of our reality is beyond form.

The fake Gospel of John made up by the Sanhedrin is mainly used to drive the ideas of the Trinity, where it equates jesus as being equal with God the father; where jesus literally becomes all that is manifest is about him.

In the synoptic Gospels in Yeshua's own speech, he refers to himself as not good, that only God is good (Mark 10:17-18), whilst he is a humble servant of the Most High (Luke 22:25-27).

Legitimately the Quran and Bible both teach Yeshua is the Messiah, the Word made manifest; this means God's will is done through him, there is no equality i.e. a Trinity.

The Source creates our reality, and Yeshua had to live God's will; thus it should show us all we have to live what the Source of reality wills or else...

Yet the Rabbinic Jews have denied it all (Zechariah 11:15-17); which is where the Quran comes along to say the Bible is real, and we all should study the Curse is happening (Deuteronomy 28-30).

People also presumed Yeshua raised himself up by doing God's Work, this is all documented in the Tanakh, and the Quran is confirming that they thought they created it; yet none have studied that it all was Allah's Plan in the Tanakh.
Was Jesus a Messenger of Allah as spoken of by Muhammad?
Muhammad simplifies Yeshua's message into calling it the Gospel from Allah (Source), where it reiterates the Tanakh - this is correct, and is a Confirmation (Seal) of the message of the prophets.

It does record that Yeshua came to place the Curse, and fulfil Allah's Plan (Snare), because the Rabbinic Jews have rejected the Message of the prophets.

5:78 Cursed were those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel by the tongue of David and of Jesus, the son of Mary. That was because they disobeyed and [habitually] transgressed.


Muhammad's review of Yeshua Vs John, Paul, and Simon the stone (peter's) review of jesus:

Yeshua taught works for salvation (Matthew 16:27), being a humble servant (Muslim - Luke 17:10), worship only Allah (Mark 11:20-22), etc. :cool:

jesus teaches free salvation by believing in his name (John 3:15-16), we're to be made kings in heaven judging angels (2 Timothy 4:8), where we worship a man god (Hebrews 1:6), etc. :eek:

In my opinion. :innocent:
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Additionally, there is nothing "holy" about "qur'an", and the title of qur'an doesn't ever say "holy". What it does say is "Al-Qur'an al-Kareem - القرآن الكريم", which does not ever translate into "holy 'qur'an", the Arabic word "qur'an" simply means "recting" (by speaking, or repetitions (as Jesus would say "vain repetitions" and "much speaking"; Matthew 6:7 KJB), and "kareem" simply means "generous" (as in "much", "overflowing"), so it literally translates from Arabic into English as "much recitations (repetitions)".

I have used the phrase Holy out of respect for the Quran that I believe to be the authenticated repository of God’s Word. You not believe that of course so let us consider as much as possible facts.

Of course the word Quran literally means recitation. While I believe the New Testament to be Divinely inspired and Jesus the Promised Messiah the Jews had awaited, we will understand some key verses differently. I do not see the words Jesus spoke in Matthew 6:7 as a reference to Muslim prayer, rather practices within pagan religions at the time of Jesus. Besides its entirely off topic.

Additionally, the 'Isa of qur'an is not the actual historical Jesus of scripture (OT/NT, Masoretic Hebrew, koine Greek TR; English KJB). The 'Isa of qur'an is a mythical imaginary construct, and as one person at one time put it, a 'theological argument'.

The Quran to any objective observer clearly refers to Jesus who is the adoration of the Christian religion. There may be different perspectives and understandings. The belief that Jesus was born to a Virgin Mary is clearly shared by both Islam and Christianity.

The "allah" of qur'an is most definitely not the Elohiym of Holy scripture, being JEHOVAH Elohiym. Not the same word, not even the same numerically. The characters of the "allah" and "JEHOVAH Elohiym" are as night and day differing.

Yet Allah shares many of the characteristics of Elohiym in the Torah.

By the standards, set up in scripture, Abu al Qasim ('father of Qasim', or Muhammad; meaning 'praised one'), is not a true prophet, but a false one from the desert, as Jesus foretold:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Mat_24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

There are two duties set forth in regards future Christ’s or Messiahs. One is the reject false Christs and Prophets, the other to accept and follow the true Christs and Prophets.

Clearly I believe Muhammad to be a True Christs or Prophet whereas you reject Him. So be it. Regardless its not the topic of the OP.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The "allah" of qur'an is most definitely not the Elohiym of Holy scripture, being JEHOVAH Elohiym.
'Ala Ilah' is the 'God Most High' in Arabic, and in Hebrew it is 'El Elyon'.

The God Most High is the Source of reality, and Yahavah means the 'Lord of Creation'; Elohim are beings manifest by the Source (EL - Isaiah 46:9).

In Deuteronomy 32:7-9 it declares that the Source divided the nations among Elohim, and Yahavah was given Israel as his people; which means the other Elohim had other people, and there is clearly something more powerful above them as being the ultimate God, that we should then worship as the Source.

Elyon - Wikipedia

Deuteronomy 32:7-9 Remember the days of old. Consider the years of many generations. Ask your father, and he will show you; your elders, and they will tell you. (8) When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the children of men, he set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the Children of El (God). (9) For Yahweh’s portion is his people. Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

The Quran is stating never did Allah directly speak with mankind as it is beyond form, and is ultimately beyond reality; therefore it has always used messengers to communicate with mankind, where mankind had become confused, and worshipped the representatives of the Divine Council as polytheism.

42:51 And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.


Yahavah being the head of creation, made the Divine Council; yet Yahavah is still something made by Allah, the Source of all things.

What Christians, and Rabbinic Jews are doing currently is creating a form of henotheism, where Yahavah Elohim isn't recognized as a Divine Being (Eloh), as Elohim (Divine Beings) is being badly translated by the world.

Thus the Quran is saying the same as everyone said (Moses, Krishna, Yeshua, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Zoroaster, etc), we should worship the Source, not the things that come from it.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Re: #1. Since the Bible does not specifically AND indisputably identify and describe the Trinity, "referring to the Bible" involves a tedious trip down a "rabbit hole" which I don't intend to engage in doing.

That’s an essential starting point. The Bible nowhere specifically or explicitly mentions the Trinity.

I have heard some Christians say that the author of the Qur'an incorrectly believed that the Christian "Trinity" consists of God, Jesus, and Jesus' mother, Mary.

Hearsay is not facts. I understand this idea comes from a misinterpretation of Quran 5:116

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah´?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

According to Wikipedia:

Regarding the verse 5:116, some scholars have written that the version of the "Trinity" concept that the Qur'an is criticizing appears to be God, Jesus, and Mary; and that this is not a description of orthodox Christian belief, wherein the third part of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit.

There is also debate about whether this verse should be taken literally.[10] For example, David Thomas states that verse 5:116 need not be seen as describing actually professed beliefs, but rather, giving examples of shirk (claiming divinity for beings other than God) and a "warning against excessive devotion to Jesus and extravagant veneration of Mary, a reminder linked to the central theme of the Qur'an that there is only one God and He alone is to be worshipped."[1] When read in this light, it can be understood as an admonition, "Against the divinization of Jesus that is given elsewhere in the Qur'an and a warning against the virtual divinization of Mary in the declaration of the fifth-century church councils that she is 'God-bearer'."[1]


Islamic view of the Trinity - Wikipedia

I have also read at least one Muslim author who denied that the Qur'an specifies the third person of the Trinity.

I don’t think it does either and doesn’t need to.

Obviously, anyone who doesn't know who the Trinity consists of or claims that the Trinity consists of God, Jesus, and some other being/person or consists of the Father, Jesus the Son, and some person or being other than the Holy Ghost/Spirit is woefully uninformed and not a credible source of information regarding Christianity's Trinity.

I don’t see clear evidence Muhammad misunderstands the trinity to include Maryam instead of the Holy Spirit.

A fair question would be: What does the Bible have to say about the Trinity? If one can not answer that question, one cannot answer "Yes", "Maybe", or "No".

You have declined to justify or elaborate on your belief in the trinity based on the Bible and that’s fine. It is at least 50% of the answer to the OP however.

A more interesting question would be: Are Allah and YHWH the same God? I say "No".

The important theological differences between Islam and Christianity in regards the nature of God as I see it are:
1: The Divinity of Christ
2/ The trinity
3/ The Sonship of Christ

You may have others to add to the list.

In regards attributes or names of God mentioned in the Quran they seem very similar to Christianity.

99 Names of Allah (Al Asma Ul Husna) - with Meaning and Explanation

Re: #2. Yes.

Re: #3: Regardless what Muhammad's teachings are, whether one believes the Bible identifies and describes the Trinity or not, Allah is not YHWH, therefore, Muhammad's teachings contradict what the Bible says about God.

Re: #4. Not applicable.

Re: #5. Some might say: "Yes." I say: "Not a chance."

We will not be able to agree that Allah and Yahweh are One and the same God. We will be able to agree on how Allah is described in the Quran as opposed to how Yahweh is described in the Tanakh.

Thanks for your considered thoughts on the OP. Peace
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Oh, you talk about 'Trinity'! We have thousands of God and Goddesses.
The religious barriers are often the issue of language comprehension.
  • El = Source of reality
  • Elohim = Divine Beings
  • Anakim = Giant Beings
  • Adam = Earth Beings
  • Nephilim = Fallen Beings
  • Rephaim = Death Beings
There are many Divine Beings in Hinduism, and only One Source (Brahman).

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The Bible nowhere specifically or explicitly mentions the Trinity.
There are forgeries where it does: Matthew 28:19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Personally believe we can show where the glue and sticky tape have been used on the end of gospels, due to bad contextual alignments.
The important theological differences between Islam and Christianity in regards the nature of God as I see it are:
1: The Divinity of Christ
2/ The trinity
3/ The Sonship of Christ
Both the Tanakh, Synoptic Gospels and Quran say Yehoshua is King David, and the Word made manifest...

Heaven came down to us, implies we're in a lower place of corruption (Gehenna).

Thus if an archangel is born in Hell, is that archangel always pure?
[GALLERY=media, 7191][/GALLERY]
Muhammadanism wants to say that Muhammad was perfect, because Christians want to say 'jesus' is perfect; ignoring Yeshua's own sentiments, that only God is perfect (Matthew 5:48).

Thus Yeshua said only God is divine; down here we are all corrupted (Matthew 19:16-19).

A Servant of the Source (Muslim) recognizes that only when we observe all of the Religious Message as One without distinction (2:285), can it then illuminate the discrepancies of understanding the whole (Islam).

2:4 And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.


In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
And I told you where it [trinity] comes from, Jesuits,

That's a neat Catholic trick.
Do you know approximately when the Trinitarian Doctrine first appeared clearly and indisputably in Christianity?
Do you know when the Jesuit order was established and by whom in the Roman Catholic Church?

Jesuits have long been the bogeymen among protestants. You've been listening to old wive's tales.
 
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