Saudi school lessons in UK concern government

[Mister Emu]

If you teach "neutrally" that Sharia demands death for homosexuality in the context of a school that advocates Sharia as an ideal, it amounts to the same thing, does it not?

Not necessarily... One can advocate that the law should ban alcohol and all beer bottles be smashed on the ground as the legal method of enforcing the ban, without advocating that those you are teaching go out and smash people's beer on the ground at present.

 

[Sahar]

No

:areyoucra So Muslims shouldn't be able read the Qur'an and teach it because it contains verses that prohibit alcohol drinking, adultery and prescribe a penalty for adultery?
Btw, what law are you talking about?

 

[Caladan]

What the heck is going on in this country?


One of the text books asks children to list the "reprehensible" qualities of Jewish people.

Well we are a reprehensible bunch!! haha and there is nothing that makes me warm inside more than when people deem me worthy of condemnation!! I work very hard for that reputation!

 

[England my lionheart]

What the heck is going on in this country?


One of the text books asks children to list the "reprehensible" qualities of Jewish people. A text for younger children asks what happens to someone who dies who is not a believer in Islam - the answer given in the text book is "hellfire".

Another text describes the punishment for gay sex as death and states a difference of opinion about whether it should be carried out by stoning, burning with fire or throwing the person over a cliff.

In a book for 14-year-olds, Sharia law and its punishment for theft are explained, including detailed diagrams about how hands and feet of thieves are amputated.


BBC News - Saudi school lessons in UK concern government

Its great that its come out,Islam doesn't need enemies to do it harm,all one need do is let the Imams talk their talk,it is disgusting though,thankfully rational people here have no problem rejecting the Sharia practice of punishing freedom of conscience,religion,sexuallity or adultery.

 

[beenie]

Last night's programme on this was shocking. Personally, I feel ALL religion should be removed from schools - other than teaching it within a cultural or historical context. Teaching pupils about stoning, amputation and how Jews look like pigs and monkeys is not education.

agree.

Yes but we don't take the streets making riots screaming death to Muslims looking like maniacks who belong in a zoo, we don't blow are selfs up in German restuarants and surely we don't teach in Yeshivas that Muslims are decendents of donkeyes and camels. We don't rape and then behead are women for anything and the main point is we are not two faced people we don't create democracys for some people and not for others to give freedom to all but to allow the hate for others.

A different flavor of violent oppression still is what it is.

It seems that you are the one doing the hating....& pretty broadly based hating at that.
As for judging me, you may do as you wish.

agree, oppression can take on many different forms, not just loud, violent ones.

What do you expect though, Kai. Islam is the "religion of peace". It's all just a simple misunderstanding. NO, really.

sad that enough idiots make it seem like this nonsense actually makes sense and allows for others to see Islam this way. when will they learn?

I think the teachers who taught this should be prosecuted for hate crimes and racism.

if they indeed taught this, then i agree.

I want to throw some sanity into the mix. Not all Muslims believe that Islamic Law advocates the death of those who are homosexual. Sharia (شريع&#1577 is not one system of law, but open to interpretation. Badran and .lava are some perfect examples of Muslim who do not interpret Sharia (شريع&#1577 in the same sort of violent manner that radical Muslims do.

agree here as well. bad apples do spoil the lot though; i just wish they'd go away.

 

[beenie]

good god i'd have to quote half this thread to make my point...

question for the Muslims (and remember, i AM one, so i'm not trying to incite)...

why can't Islam be taught from a positive, forgiving, embracing religion rather than an exclusionary one? why do our teachers focus on what the "other non-believers" <---their words, not mine...are doing? why not focus on how we can better ourselves and our image in the world rather than insulting Jews/Christians/Hindus, etc. who cares what they do? you know, i've lived on this earth long enough to realize that religion aside, we can learn A LOT from our neighbors, MUSLIM OR NOT. for goodness sake, i have non-Muslim friends that act far better than many Muslims i know.

teach Islam as the religion it is, not some politically-driven exclusionary cult-like jargon i see so often. don't pull rank on me, i have witnessed these teachings first hand, and it makes my blood boil.

/rant

edit: and i'd be the first one in line to bawl out any "teacher" who thinks it's appropriate to explain the methods of amputating anyone's hands, feet, head, etc. i don't care what crime the person supposedly committed, no CHILD needs to hear or become acquainted with that. they wouldn't want to see my face if i heard my child learned that in class today.

 

[.lava]

What the heck is going on in this country?


One of the text books asks children to list the "reprehensible" qualities of Jewish people. A text for younger children asks what happens to someone who dies who is not a believer in Islam - the answer given in the text book is "hellfire".

Another text describes the punishment for gay sex as death and states a difference of opinion about whether it should be carried out by stoning, burning with fire or throwing the person over a cliff.

In a book for 14-year-olds, Sharia law and its punishment for theft are explained, including detailed diagrams about how hands and feet of thieves are amputated.


BBC News - Saudi school lessons in UK concern government

i don't know what's going on. i just think this is very weird. what do you think?

.

 

[.lava]

edit: and i'd be the first one in line to bawl out any "teacher" who thinks it's appropriate to explain the methods of amputating anyone's hands, feet, head, etc. i don't care what crime the person supposedly committed, no CHILD needs to hear or become acquainted with that. they wouldn't want to see my face if i heard my child learned that in class today.

yes, exactly

.

 

[kai]

Thank you. It certainly isn't wide spread, at least with scholars. With people, while the majority i think would agree with some kind of punishment, lots of people don't view it that way.

I think you are probably right so theres a long way to go before the majority of scholars turn towards your view.

 

[Panda]

:areyoucra So Muslims shouldn't be able read the Qur'an and teach it because it contains verses that prohibit alcohol drinking, adultery and prescribe a penalty for adultery?
Btw, what law are you talking about?

I posted a link to a hate law which prohibits expressions of hatred based on race, ethnicity, skin colour, nationality, religion and sexuality.

Here saying all homosexuals should die is treated in the same way as crimes like racism. It is illegal (and rightly so) for me to go around saying all Muslims should die and to teach children that the "crime" of being a Muslim is punishable by death.

In our society there is no place for intolerance like this.

 

[Panda]

If you teach "neutrally" that Sharia demands death for homosexuality in the context of a school that advocates Sharia as an ideal, it amounts to the same thing, does it not?

Someone can teach me about Sharia law in a neutral way that does not advocate it for prosecute it. Similar to the way as a Child I was taught about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and other religions at school. (Not saying that is universal here I just had an absolutely amazing religious education teacher)

 

[Sahar]

I posted a link to a hate law which prohibits expressions of hatred based on race, ethnicity, skin colour, nationality, religion and sexuality.

Here saying all homosexuals should die is treated in the same way as crimes like racism. It is illegal (and rightly so) for me to go around saying all Muslims should die and to teach children that the "crime" of being a Muslim is punishable by death.

In our society there is no place for intolerance like this.

I asked you:

You said that saying adultery (i.e illegal heterosexual sex)is punishable, is not a hate speech. But saying illegal homosexual sex is punishable, is a hate speech, right? I asked you; what would be the difference in that context between illegal homosexual sex and illegal heterosexual sex?

You didn't reply until now...

 

[Sahar]

:areyoucra So Muslims shouldn't be able read the Qur'an and teach it because it contains verses that prohibit alcohol drinking, adultery and prescribe a penalty for adultery?

Panda, what do you think? Should the Qur'an be banned for this? Should Muslims be banned from reading and teaching the Qur'an?

 

[Panda]

I asked you:

You didn't reply until now...

Apologies I missed that. Neither adultery or homosexual sex is a crime so not sure what you are getting at?

Out of curiosity are you aware of what a Hate crime is in this context?

 

[Panda]

Panda, what do you think? Should the Qur'an be banned for this? Should Muslims be banned from reading and teaching the Qur'an?

Of course not! If you honestly think that is how I feel then you have totally misjudged me. What should be banned is teaching that homosexuality is wrong and a crime punishable by death.

I would not get away with teaching that Islam is wrong and punishable by death and neither should it get away with saying homosexuality is wrong and punishable by death. Just because a religion teaches something does not mean that gives it the right to break the law.

 

[Sahar]

Neither adultery or homosexual sex is a crime so not sure what you are getting at?

And I can't say that they constitute crimes in Islam, right?

And for once, why don't you stop evading my questions?

Of course not! If you honestly think that is how I feel then you have totally misjudged me. What should be banned is teaching that homosexuality is wrong and a crime punishable by death.

The Qur'an teaches that
1. Adultery when witnessed is a crime and is punishable
2. Homosexual and sodomite sex is indecent act and "wrong".

Do you think Muslims shouldn't be able to teach the Qur'an that says so?

 

[Panda]

And I can't say that they constitute crimes in Islam, right?

And for once, why don't you stop evading my questions?

I am not evading your question I genuinely did not know where you were going with your comparison.

The Qur'an teaches that
1. Adultery when witnessed is a crime and is punishable
2. Homosexual and sodomite sex is indecent act and "wrong".

Do you think Muslims shouldn't be able to teach the Qur'an that says so?

Number 1 is ridiculous and to even contemplate punishing it by death is barbaric to the highest degree.
Number 2 targets once specific group (a sexuality) and can be classes as a hate crime so yes it shouldn't be allowed to be taught as something to enforce.

Like I said would you be ok with teaching children that being a practising Muslim is a "crime" punishable by death?

 

[Sahar]

I am not evading your question I genuinely did not know where you were going with your comparison.



Number 1 is ridiculous and to even contemplate punishing it by death is barbaric to the highest degree.
Number 2 targets once specific group (a sexuality) and can be classes as a hate crime so yes it shouldn't be allowed to be taught as something to enforce.

Like I said would you be ok with teaching children that being a practising Muslim is a "crime" punishable by death?

You don't answer my questions. So any argument with you is a waste of time, since apparently you can't reply with honesty. If you want to argue with yourself and reply to questions you imagine, go ahead. Seriously, I appreciate those who are honest, courageous and straight in their discussions.

 

[Panda]

You don't answer my questions. So any argument with you is a waste of time, since apparently you can't reply with honesty. If you want to argue with yourself and reply to questions you imagine, go ahead. Seriously, I appreciate those who are honest, courageous and straight in their discussions.

I did answer your question but you refuse to answer mine. I quite clearly said that saying "adultery is a crime and should be punished by death" is not a hate crime, it is barbaric (as is calling for death for any crimes) but not a crime.

Now will you answer my questions? Do you know what a hate crime is? And is it ok to teach that the "crime" of being a Muslim should be punishable by death?

 

[kai]

And I can't say that they constitute crimes in Islam, right?

And for once, why don't you stop evading my questions?


The Qur'an teaches that
1. Adultery when witnessed is a crime and is punishable
2. Homosexual and sodomite sex is indecent act and "wrong".

Do you think Muslims shouldn't be able to teach the Qur'an that says so?

If i may

Good questions! In my opinion in this country Muslims should be quite entitled to teach that if the Quran says so, but in context of the conditions for it being imposed made quite clear, and that the laws of the host country take precedent until those conditions are a reality.

It should be taught quite openly in non Muslim schools also in religious education, so that every one is quite clear about it.