Saudi school lessons in UK concern government

[Darkness]

I want to throw some sanity into the mix. Not all Muslims believe that Islamic Law advocates the death of those who are homosexual. Sharia (شريع&#1577 is not one system of law, but open to interpretation. Badran and .lava are some perfect examples of Muslim who do not interpret Sharia (شريع&#1577 in the same sort of violent manner that radical Muslims do.

 

[Father Heathen]

This includes the immigrant criminals, right?

The difference is the rate and motive.

It was the expression of the Islamic law view regardless of the location. It should be punished means when Islamic Shari'a becomes the ruling constitution of the country. All the time I say adultery when witnessed should be punished although there is no actual penalty for adultery in my country. The theoretical teachings are a thing and the attempt to implement them is a different thing. There are aspect where I can implement individually like the different acts of worship and the good manners... etc. and there are things that need an Islamic state and government to be implemented; the penalties are one of them, like any other country.

But it seems a large portion of Muslim immigrants ignore this and inforce their own "laws" through vigilantism, disregarding the real laws of the country.

 

[Sahar]

do you believe we came from pigs and apes?

No, I don't.

 

[Sahar]

The difference is the rate and motive.

Do you have a source for statistics regarding the motives behind committing crimes by immigrants and the natives?

But it seems a large portion of Muslim immigrants ignore this and inforce their own "laws" through vigilantism, disregarding the real laws of the country.

What percentage do they represent of the Muslim immigrants? What about the non-Muslim immigrants?

Since we are speaking about the UK, sources about it would be great.

 

[pakistanyar]

As long as the U.S and European nations cuddle in bed with the Saudi Oil Establishment there will be a spread of radicals throughout the world. They are the ones funding it with their Oil Money, and u retarded Americans and Europeans wont get off your knees, but continue stimulating them. Not to mention the Saudi Establishment like other Oil Rich nations of the Gulf are monarchies which deny the freedom of religion to various groups. They are the opposite of Western Ideology, and yet the United States considers them and ally in the region. WTF! Looking after your own good here

 

[Darkness]

As long as the U.S and European nations cuddle in bed with the Saudi Oil Establishment there will be a spread of radicals throughout the world. They are the ones funding it with their Oil Money, and u retarded Americans and Europeans wont get off your knees, but continue stimulating them. Not to mention the Saudi Establishment like other Oil Rich nations of the Gulf are monarchies which deny the freedom of religion to various groups. They are the opposite of Western Ideology, and yet the United States considers them and ally in the region. WTF! Looking after your own good here

"Sure he's a son of a *****, but he's our son of a *****." It is the International Relations paradigm known as realism. Each state looks after its own interests, because no states can trust each other enough to form real cooperation. It's a beautiful and concise theory, really. It's total ********, but it's still beautiful.

 

[Alceste]

Well, Muslims in here openly said adultery is a crime and it deserves a legal penalty. Should they be jailed for this?

If they are saying it in the UK, where adultery and homosexuality are not a crime, and the proposed "legal penalty" is murder, then yes. They should be jailed or fined, according to UK law. We have an obligation to make a reasonable effort to comply and respect the laws of the society we live in. If those laws / that society isn't working for us, we should seek to live among like-minded individuals in a country where our behavior is legal. We should not try to build a fortress in hostile territory where the rule of law does not apply.

 

[Sahar]

If they are saying it in the UK, where adultery and homosexuality are not a crime, and the proposed "legal penalty" is murder, then yes. They should be jailed or fined, according to UK law. We have an obligation to make a reasonable effort to comply and respect the laws of the society we live in.

The laws of the land are irrelevant because no-one spoke of violating them.

If those laws / that society isn't working for us, we should seek to live among like-minded individuals in a country where our behavior is legal. We should not try to build a fortress in hostile territory where the rule of law does not apply.

:sarcastic

 

[kai]

I want to throw some sanity into the mix. Not all Muslims believe that Islamic Law advocates the death of those who are homosexual. Sharia (شريع&#1577 is not one system of law, but open to interpretation. Badran and .lava are some perfect examples of Muslim who do not interpret Sharia (شريع&#1577 in the same sort of violent manner that radical Muslims do.

Some Muslims would refer to the Quran over this and state that it does not advocate such a policy because of its absence.
If its not in the Quran then that's what Hadith and Sunnah are for to guide Muslims.

I wonder whether Lava and Badran consider it a crime though?

-------------------------------

It is true that some of the scholars disagreed with these punishments not because of doubt that these actions constitute a crime, but because of a lack of divine textual stipulation for a worldly punishment. But the actions of the Prophet’s Companions do indicate that in fact this crime has a worldly punishment, to be carried out by those in authority among the Muslims. The story of Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq when Khalid Ibn Al-Waleed wrote to him on this matter is famous and can be referenced in many sources.

[The story referred to above goes as follows:

"In his book Fat-h al-Qadir, the famous Hanafi scholar, Ibn al-Humam states:

“Al-Bayhaqi reported in his book Shu`ab al-Iman on the authority of Abu ad-Dunya that Abd al-`Aziz ibn Abi Hazim related from Dawud ibn Bakr who related from Muhammad ibn al-Mukadir the following:

“Khalid Ibn al-Walid wrote to Abu Bakr [seeking the legal ruling] concerning a man with whom another man had sexual intercourse. Thereupon, Abu Bakr gathered the Companions of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and sought their opinion. `Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, was the strictest of all, saying, 'Only one nation disobeyed Allah by committing such sin and you know how Allah dealt with them. I see that we should burn the man with fire.’ The Companions unanimously agreed on this.” This incident is also mentioned by al-Waqidi under the subject of apostasy at the end of the section on the apostasy of Bani Salim.]”


Read more: Death Fall as Punishment for Homosexuality - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

 

[Badran]

Some Muslims would refer to the Quran over this and state that it does not advocate such a policy because of its absence.
If its not in the Quran then that's what Hadith and Sunnah are for to guide Muslims.

The fact that something is not mentioned in the Quran altogether is one thing, and the fact that something is mentioned in the Quran and discussed, without any indication for any sort of punishment for it, while supposedly in reality its punishment is death is a whole different thing. Particularly when that thing thats supposedly punishable does not fit the description of a crime to be punished, let alone that punishment being death. Also when one puts in mind that some Hadiths are true or reliable and some aren't, it becomes a rather simple situation in my opinion. Scholars work to determine that status of hadiths, i don't have to agree with their conclusions.

I wonder whether Lava and Badran consider it a crime though?

I consider killing a homosexual a crime of course, a despicable one.

 

[kai]

The fact that something is not mentioned in the Quran altogether is one thing, and the fact that something is mentioned in the Quran and discussed, without any indication for any sort of punishment for it, while supposedly in reality its punishment is death is a whole different thing. Particularly when that thing thats supposedly punishable does not fit the description of a crime to be punished, let alone that punishment being death. Also when one puts in mind that some Hadiths are true or reliable and some aren't, it becomes a rather simple situation in my opinion. Scholars work to determine that status of hadiths, i don't have to agree with their conclusions.



I consider killing a homosexual a crime of course, a despicable one.

No do you consider the homosexual act a crime?

Do you consider it a major sin?


what of this?

Homosexuality under this law, is not only a sin, but a punishable crime against 'god'. In the case of homosexuality, how it is dealt with differs between the four mainline schools of Sunni jurisprudence today, but what they all agree upon is that homosexuality is worthy of a severe penalty.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Homosexuality



the notion that homosexual behaviour is a grave sin needing punishment is everywhere you look. Do you have any reference to it not requiring punishment?

 

[Badran]

No do you consider the homosexual act a crime?

No.

Do you consider it a major sin?

Yes.

what of this?

Homosexuality under this law, is not only a sin, but a punishable crime against 'god'.

There is no such thing as a crime against god.

In the case of homosexuality, how it is dealt with differs between the four mainline schools of Sunni jurisprudence today, but what they all agree upon is that homosexuality is worthy of a severe penalty.

I'm pretty sure not all scholars agree on this, the clear majority do but i don't think all. However, obviously this would have to do with the Hadith, and the stories reported about what the companions supposedly said or did.

the notion that homosexual behaviour is a grave sin needing punishment is everywhere you look. Do you have any reference to it not requiring punishment?

The mere fact that the Quran mentions it and does not imply in any way a punishment. When something is worthy of a death penalty, and the Quran mentions that thing more than once, without saying so, its pretty clear to me. And like i said when you put in mind other factors it becomes pretty clear. Other factors like the fact that the supposed crime is not at all fitting with such punishments. The fact that Hadiths are not all reliable. The fact that the hadith that mentions such punishment is not even mentioned in the two most reliable books of Hadiths. As for the story about the companions, there is a very obvious objection but thats not really relevant, as i don't follow the companions. They are examples to us however they do not input in the religion.

 

[kai]

No.



Yes.



There is no such thing as a crime against god.



I'm pretty sure not all scholars agree on this, the clear majority do but i don't think all. However, obviously this would have to do with the Hadith, and the stories reported about what the companions supposedly said or did.



The mere fact that the Quran mentions it and does not imply in any way a punishment. When something is worthy of a death penalty, and the Quran mentions that thing more than once, without saying so, its pretty clear to me. And like i said when you put in mind other factors it becomes pretty clear. Other factors like the fact that the supposed crime is not at all fitting with such punishments. The fact that Hadiths are not all reliable. The fact that the hadith that mentions such punishment is not even mentioned in the two most reliable books of Hadiths. As for the story about the companions, there is a very obvious objection but thats not really relevant, as i don't follow the companions. They are examples to us however they do not input in the religion.

I aplaud your thinking on this Badran but i have to say, its not widespread is it? There are quotes after quotes after quotes form Islamic websites stating it is punishable .


What is the punishment for homosexuality? Is there any differentiation between the one who does it and the one to whom it is done?.



Islam Question and Answer - The punishment for homosexuality

 

[Darkness]

I aplaud your thinking on this Badran but i have to say, its not widespread is it? There are quotes after quotes after quotes form Islamic websites stating it is punishable .


What is the punishment for homosexuality? Is there any differentiation between the one who does it and the one to whom it is done?.



Islam Question and Answer - The punishment for homosexuality

I am all for cloning Badran. :yes:

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The laws of the land are irrelevant because no-one spoke of violating them.
:sarcastic

Simply teaching from those books Violates them

 

[Sahar]

Simply teaching from those books Violates them

:areyoucra :areyoucra So Muslims there can't teach their children that interest is forbidden, alcohol drinking and gambling are forbidden...because the country allows them... Complete nonsense!!

 

[Mister Emu]

I think it depends on the delivery...

If they are teaching "God wants you to kill homosexuals" that should not be tolerated any more than somone teaching people to kill muslims... but if they are teaching that the penalty imposed on active homosexuals by Sharia is death, without advocating, or even demanding that they do not, that the students bring about the punishment it shouldn't be disallowed. Though I still find the view that the legal punishment for homosexual acts should be death, or that there should be a legal penalty at all, far from healthy.

 

[Alceste]

:areyoucra :areyoucra So Muslims there can't teach their children that interest is forbidden, alcohol drinking and gambling are forbidden...because the country allows them... Complete nonsense!!

No, they can't teach that mutilation and / or murder are acceptable / desirable punishments for homosexuality, and they can't teach "the undesirable qualities of Jews". The law in question was already posted.

 

[Alceste]

I think it depends on the delivery...

If they are teaching "God wants you to kill homosexuals" that should not be tolerated any more than somone teaching people to kill muslims... but if they are teaching that the penalty imposed on active homosexuals by Sharia is death, without advocating, or even demanding that they do not, that the students bring about the punishment it shouldn't be disallowed. Though I still find the view that the legal punishment for homosexual acts should be death, or that there should be a legal penalty at all, far from healthy.

If you teach "neutrally" that Sharia demands death for homosexuality in the context of a school that advocates Sharia as an ideal, it amounts to the same thing, does it not?

 

[Badran]

I aplaud your thinking on this Badran but i have to say, its not widespread is it? There are quotes after quotes after quotes form Islamic websites stating it is punishable.

Thank you. It certainly isn't wide spread, at least with scholars. With people, while the majority i think would agree with some kind of punishment, lots of people don't view it that way.