Saudi Arabia Reportedly to Abolish Flogging

[Debater Slayer]

Saudi Arabia to abolish flogging - supreme court

An excellent and long overdue step that's necessary all the same.

Thank you, Raif Badawi and every single person who has struggled to bring about a change like this. Your work has paid off.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Saudi Arabia to abolish flogging - supreme court

An excellent and long overdue step that's necessary all the same.

Thank you, Raif Badawi and every single person who has struggled to bring about a change like this. Your work has paid off.

Nice to see them progressing into the 18th century.

 

[Vouthon]

Very welcome and encouraging news!! Raif is such an inspiration to liberals and freethinkers the world over.

One can only hope that yet more reforms of the criminal justice system will follow.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Nice to see them progressing into the 18th century.

My initial reaction to this news was similar to yours, Monk, but please consider that such steps have inspired a butterfly effect of reform in the past. It wasn't too long ago that gay people couldn't openly be in the U.S. Army, for example.

It is what it is; we can't change the past now. I think it is better to embrace and encourage any and all progress, no matter how small, instead of mocking it. The only thing that is possible to make better at this point is the future, not the past.

 

[sun rise]

Any step forward is nice to see but they have a long way to go as these notes illustrate:

the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

• Saudi Arabia 'executed record number of people in 2019'

 

[Debater Slayer]

Any step forward is nice to see but they have a long way to go as these notes illustrate:

the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

• Saudi Arabia 'executed record number of people in 2019'

I agree. Hopefully the pressure from both domestic and international voices will lead to more reform as it has done in this case.

I'm also thinking of how big this change is to specific individuals who had to suffer such punishment before, from Egyptian businesswoman Nagla Wafa to Raif Badawi. Preventing similar incidents in the future is a key step.

 

[Sunstone]

I agree that we should be thankful for what progress has been made, but I think we should also keep up the pressure for more progress --- and that includes the use of humor to ridicule the Saudi Government, if it be warranted.

 

[sun rise]

I agree. Hopefully the pressure from both domestic and international voices will lead to more reform as it has done in this case.

I'm also thinking of how big this change is to specific individuals who had to suffer such punishment before, from Egyptian businesswoman Nagla Wafa to Raif Badawi. Preventing similar incidents in the future is a key step.

Looking at the history of change, we have the classic French vs English model. This is somewhat glossing over details, but the difference between the political evolution of France and England is instructive. France had violent revolutions and reversions to absolutism. England for the most part had an evolution into a parliamentary democracy.

Of course I personally am impatient, but I also have to pay attention to the lessons of history. Successful change is hard and only comes about by defeating entrenched interests who resist social evolution.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Oh, goodie! We'll cut your hand or your head off, but goodness, it wouldn't be nice to beat you!

How civilized.

 

[Vouthon]

Nice to see them progressing into the 18th century.

I think we've all got to be thankful for small mercies, in view of the brave, spirited men and women who've been waiting for a breakthrough like this to come, after years of campaigning (under unbelievably trying circumstances).

Indeed, much, much more needs done.

But even if halting, incremental, glacial and at times (grossly) uneven - moral progress, at the end of the day, is still moral progress.

Whereas, there are certain countries that are the heirs of generations of social advancement, which now seem to be regressing....(Hungary comes to mind).

At least Saudi Arabia's curve, in this single instance, is tending on the right path. That's reason enough for a little bit of cheer, I believe (even if it proves short-lived, which I hope not).

 

[sun rise]

I agree that we should be thankful for what progress has been made, but I think we should also keep up the pressure for more progress --- and that includes the use of humor to ridicule the Saudi Government, if it be warranted.

It's hard to advocate this right now as an American, but we really should be a model for the world on how a society should work "with liberty and justice for all". Those of us who believe that should not forget about our "backyard" as well.

I don't know if it's true or apocryphal, but I like the story no matter what because of the moral. The story goes something like this:

A mother once brought her son to Muhammad and asked that Muhammad forbid her son from eating so many dates. Muhammad asked the mother and child to return later. Later on, Muhammad did as the mother requested. When asked why he had delayed so long, Muhammad replied that he first had to himself stop eating so many dates before he could tell another to do the same thing.

 

[Sunstone]

It's hard to advocate this right now as an American, but we really should be a model for the world on how a society should work "with liberty and justice for all". Those of us who believe that should not forget about our "backyard" as well.

I don't know if it's true or apocryphal, but I like the story no matter what because of the moral. The story goes something like this:

A mother once brought her son to Muhammad and asked that Muhammad forbid her son from eating so many dates. Muhammad asked the mother and child to return later. Later on, Muhammad did as the mother requested. When asked why he had delayed so long, Muhammad replied that he first had to himself stop eating so many dates before he could tell another to do the same thing.

Nice story, but if we all waited to be perfect before encouraging each other to do better, the world would be a much worse hell than it is. I do not kill people. Therefore I feel perfectly at ease telling the Saudi Government (and my own Government) not to kill people. If you want me to be silenced by feelings of guilt for what my government does, well, I'm too busy feeling disgust to have time to be silenced by feelings of guilt.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I agree that we should be thankful for what progress has been made, but I think we should also keep up the pressure for more progress --- and that includes the use of humor to ridicule the Saudi Government, if it be warranted.

I agree. It seems to me that a significant part of maintaining progress is not getting complacent or resting on one's laurels. Even relatively prosperous countries have a chance of regressing if not for continual, alert voices that speak out whenever any sign or instance of regression comes to light.

 

[Sunstone]

Even relatively prosperous countries have a chance of regressing...

No truer words ever spoken.

Civilization is a thin veneer.

 

[sun rise]

Nice story, but if we all waited to be perfect before encouraging each other to do better, the world would be a much worse hell than it is. I do not kill people. Therefore I feel perfectly at ease telling the Saudi Government (and my own Government) not to kill people. If you want me to be silenced by feelings of guilt for what my government does, well, I'm too busy feeling disgust to have time to be silenced by feelings of guilt.

Perfection is one thing. Avoiding hypocrisy is a much more reasonable thing to strive for.

 

[Vouthon]

Speaking of Saudi atrocities...

At least the pandemic - the cause of so much misery throughout the world - has ocassioned a temporary ceasefire in Yemen, just extended by another month, where Saudi forces had been committing monumental atrocities against civilians.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Oh, goodie! We'll cut your hand or your head off, but goodness, it wouldn't be nice to beat you!

How civilized.

Cutting off limbs needs to be abolished as well, and so does capital punishment no matter the method (and that applies to all countries, not just Saudi Arabia).

If you had told me back in, say, 2012 or 2013 that Saudi Arabia would abolish flogging several years down the line, I might have thought you were dreaming. But times change, sometimes quite unexpectedly. Let's hope the cutting off of hands and capital punishment in KSA go the way of flogging.

 

[Vouthon]

and so does capital punishment no matter the method (and that applies to all countries, not just Saudi Arabia).

Amen.

Amnesty International reported a few days ago that global executions had fallen to a record low in the last 12 months, which gives us another moment of celebration amid all the gloom.

Regrettably, while phenomenal strides have been made in recent decades to internationally proscribe and stigmatize capital punishment, there had been signs of regress in this area too.

Countries like Turkey, which has not executed anyone since 1984 and formally banned the death penalty in 2004, had been mooting reviewing their sentencing laws to bring it back in, which would have meant their eviction from the Council of Europe (which outlaws the practice for signatories under the European Convention on Human Rights) and cessation of the accession process entirely for the European Union (which stipulates that every member state must have abolished state sanctioned execution).

So, Amnesty's latest figures are an encouragement.

 

[IbnAbdallah]

This is utterly ridiculous. For those celebrating, since you see flogging as "barbaric," think for a moment. Would you rather lose years of your life sitting in prison, where you already face the risk of serious injury or death, or endure a relatively small amount of pain and then go home? Most people would choose the latter, and this is exactly the point argued by the American criminologist Peter Moskos in his book, In Defense of Flogging, who sees it as a quite viable solution to the problem of mass incarceration and a much more humane form of punishment.

 

[Shad]

This is utterly ridiculous. For those celebrating, since you see flogging as "barbaric," think for a moment. Would you rather lose years of your life sitting in prison, where you already face the risk of serious injury or death, or endure a relatively small amount of pain and then go home? Most people would choose the latter, and this is exactly the point argued by the American criminologist Peter Moskos in his book, In Defense of Flogging, who sees it as a quite viable solution to the problem of mass incarceration and a much more humane form of punishment.

Flogging can cause death due to complication and blood loss. It scars

Pain diminishes and can be forgotten. Being locked up for years does neither. The point of jail time as a punishment is create regret in the convict due to being locked up for years at a time. They have to think about what they did and why they are there More so to separate the dangerous from society.

Moskos' view is that flogging is a voluntary alternative which means the convicted picks the lesser punishment. The convicted do not get a choice in their punishment as they are not a judge nor the victim. Their opinion doesn't matter.