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Featured Satanists are not Abrahamics

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Brickjectivity, Jul 23, 2021.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Saw this thread in the Hindu Dir: Kali and Satan??

    Since I'm not in that Dir thought I'd comment on this. Satanists I think are new. They are a reactionary movement to Christianity started in the 20th century. They're not an invention of Christians or Muslims, and abrahamics did not invent satanic rituals real or fake. Also satanic rituals, far as I am aware, are intended to antagonize Christianity and Islam, not Hindu religions. Christians certainly didn't envision copying Hindu rituals.

    Maybe some Theosophists did. They would do something like that, possibly. They liked combining religions in syncretic ways. I think they are a more likely origin than abrahamics.

    In Christianity and Islam we have had a lot of people allege that there are Satanists, but we don't have satanic rituals.
     
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  2. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love, is love, is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

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    How do you define Satanist? I know some people consider satanism to be people in a cabal wearing goat heads, for example.
    The first time man listened to Satan was in the Garden of Eden. All they simply do was not listen to God.
    i believe that this is the Biblical definition of Satansim. To rebel against God, to not be submissive towards Him. This is an extremely broad definition of Satanism, but that’s the definition that makes most sense to me.
     
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  3. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    I have a good Wikipedia article on the subject, but I may decide not to post it because it gets a little graphic as part of the education. I'm under the impressions that non-theistic Satanists are a bit like other atheists, only with a few different philosophies, and that theistic Satanists sometimes worship Set.
     
  4. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein The Uncuckable
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    Anton LaVey didn't start Satanism. He was a fraud and charlatan who lied about his biography (even his name is fake) and plagiarized the works of others. Just wanted to get that out of the way. Don't give that heap of garbage any credit (before anyone does).
     
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  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    That is not the group that is discussed in the "Kali and Satan" thread. There was confusion in that thread about why Satanists were imitating certain rituals of devotees to Kali, and they were pondering whether abrahamics had come up with that to cast doubt upon their traditions. I'm just saying no we abrahamics had nothing to do with that. Yes, we do have missionaries. No, we don't imitate Kali rituals and do not start satanic cults that imitate Kali rituals.

    Would we ever incorporate Kali rituals into Christianity directly? Maybe. Probably not any time soon. I can't imagine that happening at all.
     
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  6. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    There are many kinds of Satanism most of which are basically a mock-religion design to offense and protest the Christian protestant hegemony like Anton Lavey Satanism or the Satanic Temple Satanism. There are more "serious" forms of Satanism like the one preached by the Temple of Set, which broke off from Lavey Satanism because the later wasn't serious as a spiritual and philosophical movement. The Temple of Set is strongly neo-pagan in style. Finally there is Luciferianism which dates back to the Middle Ages and is probably the eldest religion that could be dubbed "Satanism". Luciferianism draws its origin from the Gnostics and from Promethean cults and has almost nothing to do with a more Abrahamic version of Satan. Many people in the Middle Ages who were condemned by the Inquisition of Luciferianism were most likely Cathars or Waldesians (Protestants before Protestantism was a thing) and most of their rituals are in line with Church Propaganda and almost entirely fictitious.
     
  7. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    It does make sense, IMO. He certainly approves of any rebellion against Jehovah God. And I believe that includes false religious tenets.

    You know, some Canaanites practiced child sacrifice (Deuteronomy 7:31); now, what kind of threat and fear would it take to get people to do that to their own children? It would have to be some drastic, tangible & observable influence! And probably, or at least it seems likely, that such an evil influence would first be directed against their king, their leader....it would then be forced upon the entire nation / tribe.

    That’s just sick!

    We can read a Bible account of influence, though not as drastic, in Exodus 7, where Pharaoh’s magic-practicing priests were able to duplicate Moses’ staff turning into a snake. They did the same thing! I wonder what Moses & Aaron first thought when they saw that? Probably, “uh oh”! But then, when Moses’ snake ate theirs, he was probably like, “YES!”

    When he thought later about that event, though.... or maybe he realized it immediately.... he came to understand that there was an invisible force, working against God’s!

    I believe it’s the same today, and in some areas of the world where tribal religions, animism, and ancestor worship prevail, Satan and his demon cohorts probably use such tangible and observable influence to mislead the people to a greater degree then most places....but in most areas, he doesn’t reveal himself quite so openly, preferring to hide and work behind the scenes, supporting whatever behaviors and tenets will alienate people from the Creator.

    Still, Ouija boards, séances, and other occult activity can bring about those observable results. IMO.
     
  8. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Since I was the one who started the original thread. (May or may not have been sober at the time heh.) I feel somewhat obligated to clarify. I wasn’t accusing any Satanic cults of copying Kali rituals or even unknowingly imitating them. Merely pondering on some of the coincidences, imagined or otherwise.
    The slander I was alluding to was more directed at Christians specifically. And that’s not a value judgement to be clear. Perhaps some misinterpreted the darker rituals and mistook them as Satanic in nature. Maybe they didn’t mean to use that against Hindus during the days of colonisation. Maybe they did. Times were different back then, after all.
    And I can’t say that I can blame them if that’s the case. It can be rather scary for outsiders to witness.
    But my prejudices and fears have since been assuaged.
     
    #8 SomeRandom, Jul 23, 2021
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  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Thank you for your comments. Its a controversial subject, but I'll attempt to explain in a nutshell how modern Satanism came to be. Explaining the relationship between the new Satanists and Christianity and Islam would be difficult without flow charts, because Satanism attempts (for a reason) to be a caricature of the evil fallen angel which Christianity has imagined.

    I think Christianity imagined this creature called Satan which was a caricature with horns and different names like "Old Scratch." He was green in South America, or he was red in USA. He was a boogeyman, a frightening story, the embodiment of the evils in humanity. Most Christians weren't too serious about him, but we began to take him seriously at some point. He became more than a symbolic figure, and ironically people began to take him seriously. Now there are people who are Christians who believe Satan to be a fallen angel trying to stir up trouble for humans. He is I suggest an amalgam of Scripture and Story, of humor and horror.

    Given that background perhaps you can understand why some enterprising individuals took it upon themselves to try and show Christians how ridiculous 'Satan' was. To make us realize that we had taken it too far, because we really had/have. The Satanists started out like the Flying Spaghetti Monster thing; but they failed to get their message across. Instead, Christians took them seriously. Since Satanism failed to accomplish its goals (of awakening Christians) it splintered into various groups. Some went this way and some that.
     
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  10. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    Communion of symbolically "eating my flesh and drinking my blood?" Blood atonement?

    What about the Hebrew whole burnt offerings? The twin goats--the sin offering and the scapegoat?

    Sure, Abraham started substituting animals for sacrifice instead of humans, which is a sort of progress in a way. The symbolism remained, however. Jesus' sacrifice is supposed to highlight this and call for the ending of animal sacrifice, but many Christians still cling to the old blood atonement concepts instead of letting those go and embracing forgiveness.
     
  11. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Wow. That’s interesting. I guess having now thought about it, I weirdly always associated Satan more with Christianity (in that he was the main antagonist) than really any other religion. Even Judaism and Islam.
    Huh. I guess that makes a strange amount of sense now
     
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  12. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I can't say for sure where Satanists got their rituals. I suppose that they could have been taking communion to some kind of extreme weirdness. You're right that they may not be from Kali at all, and I'm not trying to say that they are.

    The union in communion which comes through shared food is agnostic about Physics, but beyond that I don't know where to begin discussing with you. Despite knowing you for a while I don't really know what you think about this topic. Do you think it comes from some ancient practice of human sacrifice? If so it surprises me.

    There are things I don't know about these offerings and about the scapegoat offering. I've read the text, but not everything is described there. One is slain and one is set free -- though someone has told me that its not freed but thrown over a cliff. I don't know about that.

    Lets talk politics: If a person from tribe A is wanted (for crimes) by tribe B, then tribe A can offer them as a sacrifice to create peace, possibly as the basis for a treaty. That's a real, practical sacrifice; and people do it. Its one possible origin for the concept of human sacrifice, since it has as its goal unity and or appeasement between people.

    Now lets talk about Canaanites and Israelites. I don't know what your opinion is and whether you're saying that these people practice(d) human sacrifice. Are they the same group? Do the Canaanites merge to become Israel or are they slaughtered and replaced by Israel? Are the Canaanites truly so superstitious that they are killing people to appease gods? Are the Israelites? --- or are you wondering what my opinion is?

    The reason I say these things is that you refer to some human sacrifice that I am unaware of. Perhaps you have a model of how modern Judaism develops? I don't know where you are getting your model from. If I just go with what I get from reading bible books then I get a different result -- that there was no human sacrifice and that Isaac was a near-miss. If read outside the bible books and presume that the Canaanites become Israel by means of a treaty then I can see interpolating that some at one time were sacrificing humans, but I suspect it would be for political not theological reasons. Do you feel confident that human sacrifices were performed and for superstitious reasons? :)
     
  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    For what do we live but to make sport for our neighbors and then laugh at them in their turn?
     
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  14. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Heh that made me think of
    The whole world is a stage and all the men and women are merely the players.
     
  15. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Nice one. :) What I wrote was a quote from pride and prejudice written by Jane Austin.
     
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well I think satanism is older than that. But if you're speaking of modern satanic organization that has recently arisen then that's one thing.
     
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  17. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    I thought it seemed half familiar lol
     
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  18. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    As usual my thoughts about it are controversial. :) But they are limited edition and supplies are running out, so buy now!
     
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  19. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    I think Jesus was using shock tactics to highlight the horror of blood sacrifice and further modifying the ritual in an effort to end it.

    The animals continue to be substituted for humans here. Israelites caught practicing animal sacrifice outside of the Temple were to be charged with murder--to keep from diluting the symbolism. People do horrible things to each other. The story of Cain and Abel is one of the first biblical examples. Did Cain sacrifice Abel because God seemed to want blood?


    Tribalism has the gods as an egregore/collective spirit of their respective tribes. Appease the tribal god, you appease the collective tribe.

    In the Bible, there are admonishments to the Israelites not no make their children pass through the fire to Molech and such.

    Another symbolic reference to Can and Abel: There was a dramatic increase of violence on the earth with the development of agriculture and people settling down into cities. The agricultural cities were able to begin amassing wealth. The nomadic herdsmen could only amass what they could carry. Consequentially, the nomadic herdsmen would often raid the agricultural settlements for their wealth, often killing all the men and carrying the women and children off to be sex slaves and other types of slaves. It was the rise of Patriarchy. I suppose the mass killings might be applied as a "sacrifice" to the collective spirit of the raiding tribe in order to appease the conscience of the tribal members who did the raiding and killing. (Collective spirit was very important to herdsmen--they employed it to control their herds.)
    Seeing people from other tribes as being non-human or animals might make it easier to appease ones conscience.
    Do you see collective spirit and seeking to appease the collective spirit as "superstitious?"
     
  20. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Maybe, but I'm a non-literal reader of the gospels and think they are communications between Jews about how to respond to the Roman situation, perhaps to the Titus situation. I don't feel confident that the gospels are written before the fall of the temple. I'd say that there is a lot of hyperbole which distracts outsiders like ourselves when we assume these gospels are about dumping the temple system. Pacifism isn't the only possible response to the Roman situation but is the one the one chosen at that time, and maybe the gospels are some kind of argument for that outcome. I don't think shock tactics are necessary if Titus has recently burned the temple and crucified thirty thousand men. With that recent horror we are going to be very moved by a story about a crucified man. We are shocked already and looking for some positive outlet for our pain, some meaning to give to all of that horror.
    Ok, so chips down what I think: Cain is taken over by his anger, by sin that desires to own him. He slays his brother, but because its in a mad fit of rage he is marked and exiled instead of put to death. This is about the cities of refuge and mercy for murderers. It is part of the books of the law. We can wonder if it reflects pre-Israelite strife but don't know. The obstacle I have with what you've said there is that this entire book of Genesis is about pacifism in my view. It has arguments against: war, cities, slavery, accumulation of large tracts of property. Sacrifices seem like a substitute for vengeance, perhaps between the tribes; but this is all made up since the scriptures don't record a whole lot of enmity between the twelve tribes. Its only through archeology that we ever hear of the pantheon of the twelve.
    A lot in there.
    Yes, there is Molech. I can see there that perhaps there is human sacrifice alluded to in pre-Israelite times. I'm not convinced that herdsmen are the brutes in the story. It seems more likely to me that the cities are the source of scourges. In particular the tombs of the pharoahs and their rock structures record that they continually subjugate and pillage herding cultures. It is part of their religion to do this, to be dominant, to steal things to give to their temple. All of the surrounding dynasties are jealous of Egypt, that it is ruled by a deity not just a king. The Caananites live in the middle of a bunch of dynasties and are probably getting pinched for over a thousand years. They are probably a mass of shepherds and escaped slaves, ex convicts, ex soldiers...very mixed people and motley...I imagine.

    "The nomadic herdsmen could only amass what they could carry. Consequentially, the nomadic herdsmen would often raid the agricultural settlements for their wealth, often killing all the men and carrying the women and children off to be sex slaves and other types of slaves." This actually is what the Pharoahs record doing to the surrounding herdsmand for a thousand years, except for Akhenaten of course. Herdsmen might of done this, too; but I don't know. Herding seems like very honest work, but sure they could be very rough. It would take a lot for tribe s of herdsmen to band together and get over their differences.

    "It was the rise of Patriarchy." Herders? Maybe, but it was the city kings who had rules like "The king must sleep with every virgin." Because they could. I don't know much about the theory of patriarchy and tend to associate it with the rise of large scale agriculture.
     
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